Shocked by Polygamy

[_Analytics]

For example, when Joseph Smith was practicing polygamy, he denied doing so to the general mebmership of the church. At the time, the D&C expresssly outlawed polygamy, and Joseph Smith claimed he was not doing it. That is disturbing.

Actually, I think that the membership knew about it. We need to remember that Joseph would ask family members of the women involved if it were okay. And some of those family members were present during the sealing. Difficult to keep it a secret. Also, the other wives knew. Eliza Snow for example. And when the saints went to Utah, and these sealed wives died, they often had the smith name on their tombstone. No secret there. Now it was kept secret from the public and also denied. Why? because if this were made public, the mobs would be outraged and many saints would die.

Interesting. Just to make sure I understand what you are saying, consider Edward Milo Webb, who was serving a mission in Michigan in 1845 when he wrote the following in an editorial to the Kalamazoo Gazette:

The Latter Day Saints are charged by their enemies with the blackest crimes. Treason, murder, theft, polygamy, and adultery, are among the many crimes laid to their charge....Mr. Rigdon's spiritual wife system was never known till it was hatched by J. C. Bennett who was cut off from the church for seduction. As to the charge of polygamy, I will quote from the Doctrine and Covenants which is the subscribed faith of the church and is strictly enforced. Article on marriage, sec. 109. par. 4. 'Inasmuch as this church of Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication and polygamy, we declare that we believe that one man should have but one wife and one woman but one husband; except in case of death when either is at liberty to marry again.

Do you think that Edward Milo Webb knew that "the charge of polygamy" was essentially true when he wrote this?

[_Buffalo]

Condoms have been around for hundreds of years. I believe the word was coined in the 1600s. A simple google search will prove my point

Really? You are actually going to suggest the Joseph Smith had and used condoms? That is completely absurd.

Infinitely more probable than your anachronistic "dynastic sealings" idea.

[_Buffalo]

Partly to maintain secrecy, Joseph could not have spent much time with [Louisa] Beaman or any of the women he married. He never gathered his wives into a household--as his Utah followers later did--or accompanied them to public events. Close relationships were further curtailed by business. Joseph had to look after Emma and the children, manage the Church, govern the city, and evade the extradition officers from Missouri. As the marriages increased, there were fewer and fewer opportunities for seeing each wife. Even so, nothing indicates that sexual relations were left out of plural marriages.

Richard Lyman Bushman, Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling, 438-39

[_badseed]

Really? I heard there are people that are shocked that polygamy happened and act like it's a new revelation to them.

How can you be a member of the Church and not know about polygamy? I am confused how this is possible.

JMS

I knew that polygamy happened in Utah with Brigham Young and other church members but as a young Latter-Day Saint I was taught that polygamy was only practiced to provide husbands and to provide for widows following the migration West — and I believed it. There was no Internet or Google around and I was not inclined to research the specifics on my own.

It probably wasn't until right before my mission or maybe even on my mission that I learned that Joseph Smith had 1) had plural wives (had no idea how many) and 2) that plural marriage was more than just a way to take care of widows. Section 132 makes that pretty clear. In fact, on my mission a member let us borrow some dramatized Church history tapes (cassettes....dating myself) that hinted at polyandry now that I look back at it but I was too uninformed and naïve at the time to put it all together.

Essentially I took what the Church offered me as an explanation for polygamy— and because the topic is avoided in Church and rarely discussed outside of it, I had little motivation to dig further. This was in CA and long before Warren Jeffs and the FLDS were newsworthy.

Only as a 35+ year old father and husband did the questions become enough for me to really research the topic. Talk about and education. Wow.

Fact is though....polygamy in the Church is a taboo subject. The Church is so intent on making it as if polygamy never happened that discussing it within regular meetings is a big no-no. If people aren't curious on their own and do not feel empowered to research the topic is stays un-researched.

[_Fence Sitter]

So if some of these marriages were just for dynastic sealing purposes, why was it only the female spouse being sealed to Joseph Smith? We do know that men were being sealed to men also.

[_Buffalo]

Most Mormons don't seem to have a very in-depth history of their own religion anyway, beyond the faith-promoting bits mentioned in manuals.

I used to be incredibly insulted by this kind of observation, in my missionary days. But in truth I knew very little about Mormonism, just like all the other missionaries.

[_Buffalo]

...

You totally don't understand what we are talking about. There are two distinct groups of women here: the dynastic marriages and the polygamous ones. Buffalo is clouding the issue by mixing up the facts by citing the polygamous relationships and then stating this was true of the dynastic ones as well.

There were no "dynastic" (sexless) marriages with Joseph in his lifetime. Prove me wrong.

[_Juggler Vain]

You're right. I totally don't understand what you are talking about.

Are you saying that dynastic marriages are non-sexual? Why wouldn't sex be allowed in Joseph's dynastic marriages?

What makes the two groups of women distinct? Aren't Joseph's dynastic marriages just a subset of the polygamous ones?

Did Joseph (or does scripture) teach about any of this?

-JV

From my understanding, there were both dynastic marriages, and plural marriages to Joseph. In fact, there were many women who had themselves sealed to Joseph after he died.

There has been a lot of speculation on which women were dynastic sealings and which were plural wives, in the true sense of the word. Some have felt that Helen Mar Kimball was merely a dynastic sealing. However, if that was the case, why was she disappointed about not being able to go to a dance because she was promised to Joseph?

The RLDS contention is that ALL of Joseph's sealings were dynastic, and that he didn't sleep with any wife other than Emma.

I do not believe this because, if this was the case, I don't think that Emma would have been so distraught over the whole conecept of plural marriage to begin with. There are also accounts by faithful members of the Church who have testified that Joseph did know at least several of his wives "in very deed".

I don't understand the distinction between "dynastic" and "polygamous" marriages. The fact that there were strategic social (i.e., "dynastic") reasons behind a polygamous marriage does not make it non-polygamous or non-sexual. Helen Mar Kimball, a 14 year-old (and clearly dynastic) wife, was surprised to find out that her marriage to Joseph was for both "time" and "eternity," and precluded her from socializing with boys. Helen Mar's sexuality belonged to Joseph while he was her earthly husband. Even if Joseph hesitated to have sex with a 14 year-old (and I'm not sure he was), he was clearly reserving her for sex later.

If categorizing the marriages is important. It's possible that one could distinguish between "purely dynastic" marriages and marriages "for love" (i.e., marriages arranged for purely strategic purposes vs. marriages arranged because of sexual attraction), but for the marriages Joseph Smith entered into while he was alive, there isn't enough information to sort out which is which -- and a marriage could easily be both. I think it's safe to say, however, that after Joseph was dead and buried, any marriage to him was "purely dynastic," rather than "for love."

-JV

[Guest]

...

You totally don't understand what we are talking about. There are two distinct groups of women here: the dynastic marriages and the polygamous ones. Buffalo is clouding the issue by mixing up the facts by citing the polygamous relationships and then stating this was true of the dynastic ones as well.

There were no "dynastic" (sexless) marriages with Joseph in his lifetime. Prove me wrong.

Oh, that's easy. Every one of the marriages to Joseph Smith after his death was dynastic. And I didn't invent the concept. The RLDS or CoC have maintained ALL of Joseph Smith relationships besides Emma were dynastic. The burden of proof is actually to demonstrate which of the marriages were not dynastic and it has been a topic of discussion between the RLDS and LDS since Joseph Smith's death.

[_Buffalo]

I doubt most of the marriages were for "love." Sex is another matter.