LGBT inclusion can tear congregations apart

[Doctor Steuss]

Do Latter-day Saints really believe that their Heavenly Father created all things? I thought they believed that he merely organized some pre-existing matter, having himself been a mortal in some previous world.

I for one do believe in a God who created all things. Iron Age books and their 19th century imitations do not seem to me to describe this Being so clearly.

“Merely organizing” would take a good bit of creativity. In that sense, yes, God created all things. I think that is pretty much in line with LDS theology.

Regards,
MG

Creation ex nihilo is absolutely not in line with LDS theology. LDS theology patently rejects it. D&C 93:29, for example leaves absolutely no room for a theological position of creation ex nihilo within Mormonism.

Manipulating language to try to make it sound more palatable to mainstream Christianity is very disingenuous, in my opinion. Mormonism has unique doctrines, that deviate pretty starkly from mainstream Christianity. Creation being one of them.

[MG 2.0]

“Merely organizing” would take a good bit of creativity. In that sense, yes, God created all things. I think that is pretty much in line with LDS theology.

Regards,
MG

Creation ex nihilo is absolutely not in line with LDS theology. LDS theology patently rejects it. D&C 93:29, for example leaves absolutely no room for a theological position of creation ex nihilo within Mormonism.

Manipulating language to try to make it sound more palatable to mainstream Christianity is very disingenuous, in my opinion. Mormonism has unique doctrines, that deviate pretty starkly from mainstream Christianity. Creation being one of them.

I suppose I am not being clear. I am suggesting that the LDS position is that God created all things by using existing elements and organizing them into a world like unto the world that we find our selves living on. This took creative ability. Thus, God(s) is/are the creator of all things is which we have to do.

Our creator God.

If I was seen as putting forth the idea that God created all things from nothing, I apologize for my lack of clarity.

Regards,
MG

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Cool space opera, bro.

[Chap]

Your analogy is not a good one. We have plenty of proof that science, honestly done (as it is the vast majority of the time) leads to real insights into nature whose validity is, in part, guaranteed by the new powers it gives us to cure diseases, fly to the moon and get energy from the sun.

Religion? Not so much.

I think a lot of religious people would disagree with you that their religious experience is devoid of insights and powers to change their lives for the better. Religion doesn’t need to provide an alternative method for space travel in order to be useful, and even if the afterlife doesn’t exist religion can be a powerful force for good in the world.

Mormonism is a really extreme example of a religious worldview that requires 10 percent tithing, teaches young earth creationism in the temple, was invented by a snake oil salesman, etc. I don’t think it’s fair to throw the entire religious enterprise away by looking at extreme examples.

Basically, when science works, everybody can see it working: the plane is flying, the disease is cured, I can hear you talking from the other side of the world. The seeing does not depend on where in the world you come from, or what religion your parents taught you. Religion? Nope. The subjectivity is part of the deal.

[drumdude]

I think a lot of religious people would disagree with you that their religious experience is devoid of insights and powers to change their lives for the better. Religion doesn’t need to provide an alternative method for space travel in order to be useful, and even if the afterlife doesn’t exist religion can be a powerful force for good in the world.

Mormonism is a really extreme example of a religious worldview that requires 10 percent tithing, teaches young earth creationism in the temple, was invented by a snake oil salesman, etc. I don’t think it’s fair to throw the entire religious enterprise away by looking at extreme examples.

Basically, when science works, everybody can see it working: the plane is flying, the disease is cured, I can hear you talking from the other side of the world. The seeing does not depend on where in the world you come from, or what religion your parents taught you. Religion? Nope. The subjectivity is part of the deal.

Completely agreed that it’s not as easily studied and apparent when it works. And the study into the benefits of religion has to be subjective and based on soft data. I’d compare religion to meditation - it’s still possible to study even if it can’t be measured with a ruler or microscope.

[Res Ipsa]

Ceebs, I'd like to continue this portion of the discussion either privately or in Celestial if you are so inclined. There are several approaches to Christianity I think I grasp. But I've tried to understand the claim by some Christians that other Christians are picking and choosing from the Bible with no success. From where I sit, I see picking and choosing everywhere. And, for me, the explanations offered don't hang together. So, I'd be interested in hearing more about how you approach what I see as picking and choosing. If you ever decide to have such a conversation, please let me know.

This is where the claims of Mormonism come into play. Joseph Smith saw that various Christian denominations were literally and figuratively not on the same page.

Ceeboo, I appreciate that you’re defending your particular views as to what the Bible teaches/says. Good Christians have been doing this for a long time. But the fact is, we see so many varying views as to what the gospel is and what it teaches.

In my view, if Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Light, it was necessary for him, through the Father, to restore what was lost through the ages.

I truly commend you for your dedication to the Bible and what you see as its teachings concerning salvation.

Truthfully? You won’t get very far with this crowd. Their hearts are turned away from the God who created all things.

Regards,
MG

MG 2.0, respectfully, I asked this question of Ceeboo because it’s something that puzzles me about a strain of thought I’ve noticed among mainstream Christians. Quite frankly, Ceeboo and I together could have an extended discussion about how Smith's new religion is cherry picking on steroids under the guise of the unfalsifiable “incorrect translation” excuse, but that has nothing to do with my question to Ceeboo. I asked it because it is a question that genuinely puzzles me and I I think that Ceeboo and I have a relationship built on sufficient trust to permit a candid and fruitful discussion.

That you responded to my question to Ceeboo by hijacking my question, poisoning the well against me personally, and making a thread that has literally nothing to do with you into your personal persecution pity party, is both arrogant and beyond rude.

Why you think your constant stream of antics will influence that vast crowd of lurkers you seem to think are reading your words to think that Mormonism has anything to recommend it is beyond me.

And before you shift into weasel mode about how you weren’t talking about me personally, read the name in the post you responded to. Whatever your excuse this time around, I don’t believe it.

[drumdude]

Agreed, very rude.

[MG 2.0]

This is where the claims of Mormonism come into play. Joseph Smith saw that various Christian denominations were literally and figuratively not on the same page.

Ceeboo, I appreciate that you’re defending your particular views as to what the Bible teaches/says. Good Christians have been doing this for a long time. But the fact is, we see so many varying views as to what the gospel is and what it teaches.

In my view, if Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Light, it was necessary for him, through the Father, to restore what was lost through the ages.

I truly commend you for your dedication to the Bible and what you see as its teachings concerning salvation.

Truthfully? You won’t get very far with this crowd. Their hearts are turned away from the God who created all things.

Regards,
MG

MG 2.0, respectfully, I asked this question of Ceeboo because it’s something that puzzles me about a strain of thought I’ve noticed among mainstream Christians. Quite frankly, Ceeboo and I together could have an extended discussion about how Smith's new religion is cherry picking on steroids under the guise of the unfalsifiable “incorrect translation” excuse, but that has nothing to do with my question to Ceeboo. I asked it because it is a question that genuinely puzzles me and I I think that Ceeboo and I have a relationship built on sufficient trust to permit a candid and fruitful discussion.

That you responded to my question to Ceeboo by hijacking my question, poisoning the well against me personally, and making a thread that has literally nothing to do with you into your personal persecution pity party, is both arrogant and beyond rude.

Why you think your constant stream of antics will influence that vast crowd of lurkers you seem to think are reading your words to think that Mormonism has anything to recommend it is beyond me.

And before you shift into weasel mode about how you weren’t talking about me personally, read the name in the post you responded to. Whatever your excuse this time around, I don’t believe it.

Yes, I could have been/done better. I’ve been a bit fed up with what I see to be the troll like behavior from a certain poster and I blasted out indiscriminately.

I apologize for that. My experience tells me that there are some good and decent people here.

Regards,
MG

[I Have Questions]

Basically, when science works, everybody can see it working: the plane is flying, the disease is cured, I can hear you talking from the other side of the world. The seeing does not depend on where in the world you come from, or what religion your parents taught you. Religion? Nope. The subjectivity is part of the deal.

Completely agreed that it’s not as easily studied and apparent when it works. And the study into the benefits of religion has to be subjective and based on soft data. I’d compare religion to meditation - it’s still possible to study even if it can’t be measured with a ruler or microscope.

What I see being conflated in these studies is the benefit of operating within a community, and the benefit of religion. The more inclusive a community, the more equal community members are, the more that the individuals within that community work for the greater good, the bigger the benefits for all.

Religion generally only benefits those members of it that fit the specific criteria of that religion. For example what are the benefits of the Mormon religion for a gay couple?

[Res Ipsa]

Completely agreed that it’s not as easily studied and apparent when it works. And the study into the benefits of religion has to be subjective and based on soft data. I’d compare religion to meditation - it’s still possible to study even if it can’t be measured with a ruler or microscope.

What I see being conflated in these studies is the benefit of operating within a community, and the benefit of religion. The more inclusive a community, the more equal community members are, the more that the individuals within that community work for the greater good, the bigger the benefits for all.

Religion generally only benefits those members of it that fit the specific criteria of that religion. For example what are the benefits of the Mormon religion for a gay couple?

It's very hard, in my opinion, to tease out the benefits of community in general from benefits unique to some subset of communities. Also, communities tend to gather around shared interests or concerns, so they tend to have boundaries -- formal or informal. I belong to community of table-top board and role playing gamers. It's pretty inclusive -- as long as you want to play those games. If you want to join the community and blast death metal while others are playing, you aren't welcome.

Organized religion is pretty good at forming communities. However, there is a complication: children born of members of a religious community don't choose to join it. That choice is made by the parents. And, if the child doesn't fit within the group -- or meet the membership qualifications -- there is far too often no ability of the child to just say "Hey, this isn't working for me. Thanks, but I'm going to try something else." †his is especially true when member of the group believe that being a member is the difference between salvation and damnation.

People get things out of belonging to communities that I don't understand. As long as the association is voluntary, I don't lose sleep over that issue.