Themis wrote:Even if they enjoyed some measure of truth or inspiration does not mean we should accept or justify the bad. Even the worst people have some good in them.
I agree. We shouldn't excuse the bad. We should recognize it and confront it. But in doing so we should be careful not to misjudge. It is easy to vilify and condemn what we fear and don't understand.
Nevo wrote: The bottom line is that these women agreed to marry Joseph Smith because they believed that God wanted them to. They believed God wanted them to, not just because Joseph Smith said so, but because of personal, deeply felt spiritual experiences that convinced them that polygamy was a true principle. Yes, they trusted Joseph Smith. But they trusted their own experiences with God even more.
So have many like the Bent girls. This should be a good indication of just how unreliable these expereinces can be. If the Bent girls can be wrong so can Joseph girls, and only some of them we know wrote about having a spiritual experience after being heavily coerced through repugnant methods. That they had this kind of experiences to help them cope with a horrible situation is is quite common. Kinda reminds me of Stockholm syndrome, and that's about people who initially viewed them as the enemy.
Nevo wrote: I agree. We shouldn't excuse the bad. We should recognize it and confront it. But in doing so we should be careful not to misjudge. It is easy to vilify and condemn what we fear and don't understand.
I agree that we should be careful and not misjudge, which is why we should get as much information as possible. Joseph case is fairly easy though, since we know some of the ways he went about it, which were quite reprehensible. You asked how other would have done it. I would say first is to at least follow some of the rules you set out. Marrying other men's wives, some behind their back should never have been done, nor has anyone shown any justifiable reason's for doing so. I would have asked God if he wants me to do it, he will need to let my wife know. I wouldn't have gone behind her back. I wouldn't have gone after young girls coercing the way he did. The way he did it was just wrong, and is one of the best ways to see whether someone really is being guided by a higher being worthy of following. He did exactly the kind of things we both use to reasonably condemn anyone else, so why not him?
I think in the end to many need to defend the indefensible in order to protect their overall beliefs.
Last edited by Guest on Fri Feb 11, 2011 6:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Buffalo wrote:On the contrary, it seems Joseph did everything he could to avoid establishing it by denying that he practiced it and outlawing it officially in the church.
Well, not everything. He did, in fact, secretly teach it to dozens of close associates, so that within a year or so of his death close to a thousand members of the Church were practicing it. Presumably he could have avoided this by not teaching it to anyone.
Buffalo wrote:On the contrary, it seems Joseph did everything he could to avoid establishing it by denying that he practiced it and outlawing it officially in the church.
Well, not everything. He did, in fact, secretly teach it to dozens of close associates, so that within a year or so of his death close to a thousand members of the Church were practicing it. Presumably he could have avoided establishing the practice by not teaching it to anyone.
Impossible, since he had to teach it to the young girls and married women he was having sex with. Letting his inner circle in on the scam was I suppose charitable of him, but he still was acting contrary to church doctrine - which he himself implemented.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.
Nevo wrote:That's a fair comment. "To justify" means "to prove or show to be just, right, or reasonable." I'm only concerned here with what is "reasonable" or understandable behavior under the circumstances. I am certainly not arguing that people who believe they are acting in others' best interests are always, in fact, doing so. That's clearly not the case.
I have to say I've always been impressed with your honesty and attempts to be fair, reasonable, and thorough. I really do appreciate that.
I am sure you are sincere in your beliefs, as I am. For me, that Joseph's actions were understandable does not mean they were right.
Buffalo wrote: Impossible, since he had to teach it to the young girls and married women he was having sex with. Letting his inner circle in on the scam was I suppose charitable of him, but he still was acting contrary to church doctrine - which he himself implemented.
Involving the inner circle is a necessity in order to successfully run the scam. You always need to have the support of some around you in order to pull it off long term. Even dictators have to have support of some of the people , and they will need to benefit from the relationship.