Flip Side of the Coin

[_Themis]

Would you please clarify something for me? Are you saying everyone who asks the LDS god whether or not the LDS Church is true, will get the same answer you did?

No, I'm not saying that at all. God can give anyone who asks any answer at all. It would certainly be more convenient for me if God gave the same answer to everyone, but I'm not going to tell God what S/He can and cannot say.

I don't remember this one being taught. It certainly does not fit your description of a good God. How inconsistent do you need your good God to be to protect your self deception?

[_KevinSim]

I can't control what I believe in, at least not that directly. My beliefs are an output of all the different experiences I've had. They can be changed, but not just by me deciding to change them. I cannot at this moment just choose to believe in Santa Claus. I could say I believe in Santa Claus, but that would not make it true (although if I repeated it enough to myself it's certainly possible that I could become to believe it). But it's not nearly as simple as just choosing what to believe in. You can choose to some extent what information you expose yourself to, and you can choose to disregard certain evidence if you think it's unreliable, but our beliefs are shaped by much more than just our conscious thoughts about a subject.

By this measure I'm an atheist. If I were purely governed by what seems logical to me I would be an atheist. Yet I stand before you a firm believer in a good God that controls the universe. I guess I feel like I am more than just the summation of all things that seem logical to me. I can will, and I have willed to believe in God, the doubts that plague me from time to time notwithstanding.

It's an uneasy association, granted, me deciding that I will believe, and parts of my mind saying, "But what about this?" and, "What about this?" But I've found it's a workable alliance, and by now I'm very used to it.

[_KevinSim]

Look, I'm willing to discuss things with you regardless of our disagreement, but as soon as you start speculating on what I really think deep down, you're not operating on good faith. Who the hell are you to tell me what my conscience says?

Sorry about that, Cylon; I worded that badly. I don't see myself so much as one who declares to others what their consciences say and don't say. Rather, I should just ask you questions about your conscience, and maybe point out some things that I think are odd in the answer you give me.

Trust me, as far as dealing with the implications of the possibility that there is no God and no afterlife, the thought that I might not build something that will outlast the probable lifespan of the universe is not even on my radar.

Why isn't it on your radar?

Now, I'm not in any way saying that our current understanding of the universe is comprehensive and can't be wrong, but until there is evidence to say it is, I'm going to go with the best evidence we have.

Even when the "best evidence we have" indicates to you that preserving some good things forever is impossible? That doesn't seem like a very optimistic approach.

All of your arguments here have been based on a set of axioms (God exists and his intent for us is to build things that will last eternally) that you haven't even tried to prove.

You've mistaken me. God existing is not an axiom I'm asking anybody to believe in. But our need "to build things that will last eternally" very much is. I don't think we should obsess about it. We can build many things that will only last for finite periods of time before we ever get around to beginning to build the things we want to last forever.

But if your conscience doesn't require you to at least think about what it would take to build some things that will last forever, then how long a space of time does your conscience require that the things will last that you build for future generations of humanity? Does it just require you to build things that will last until all your grandchildren are dead (assuming you have grandchildren)? Or your great-grandchildren? How long does your commitment to the welfare of humanity require you to build things that will provide benefit to humanity?

[_KevinSim]

wow ...

anyway, I thought the question was is the good/LDS god a different god than say the Baptist God? I thought you said, absolutely yes.

I would have assumed that most Mormons would say, no, its the same god, its just that we have a better understanding of his/her attributes.

There's just a semantical distinction. I say, "The Evangelical God does thus and such"; other Latter-day Saints say, "Evangelicals think God does thus and such"; what difference does it make?

[_KevinSim]

I don't buy that so many of the world including many good LDS who grew up in the church and were active believing while praying are somehow not willing to to follow God's answer.

How many people are we talking about? Has anyone taken a count, or made a well-documented estimate?

Then you can add on the scriptures and how inconsistent God is.

What does inconsistency have to do with anything?

They might, but it really means you haven't had any real definitive answers from god, and at best vague answers.

I would have to disagree with you; the answer I got in 1976 was very definitive; it wasn't vague at all.

The problem here Is I don't think this would fit your description of what a Good God would do. I would agree with that, which means this good God does not exist.

Let's assume for the sake of argument that it's possible to document that precisely 5 million people have asked God if the LDS Church is true, five or more years ago, and none of them have gotten a response. How do you go from there to the conclusion that the good God I've described doesn't exist?

[_KevinSim]

I think what is unreasonable is for the vast majority of the world including LDS are somehow not willing to transform their lives.

Themis, why do you think that's unreasonable?

Many LDS are already living a good LDS lifestyle, and outside the church are already in the ways that count already great people.

Like me, for example. I was living a good LDS lifestyle, keeping the commandments, going to church, going to seminary, saying my prayers. My seminary teacher urged us to pray about the Book of Mormon, so I did; I asked God if the Book of Mormon was true, and I got a good feeling. And every time I did that I knew I couldn't count on the good feeling as having come from God. Because each time I had wanted a good feeling.

There may be a lot of Latter-day Saints who ask God the question I've been referring to. But it's very easy for me to believe that nowhere near as many are any better at being ready for any answer than I was. It was hard work getting to the point where I would accept either a yes or a no answer.

[_KevinSim]

What do you say to those people, asking the same question in the same way as you did, to whom God replied with a no?

I say nothing to those people; I know of no good reason to believe any such person exists!

[_KevinSim]

CoJCoLDS? Ten per cent of your pre-tax income gone for a lifetime.

I have no problem giving ten per cent of that income to the LDS Church.

[_KevinSim]

Or was left without any reply?

I'd tell them to be patient. What else can they do?

I'd also tell them not to put their lives on hold while they're waiting for a response. I'd tell them to just go on with their regular lives, but to keep the question they're asking God in the back of their minds.

[_KevinSim]

Finally, as a thirty-five year old, broken and in agony, begging and begging and begging. For one sign. One feeling. One comfort. One reassurance. One anything.

Nothing. Not once. Ever.

And that's my fault?

I never said it was. Nor did I say that you needed to be in agony while you were "begging and begging and begging." Rather it makes more sense to go on with your normal life, living it as best as you can. But keep in the back of your mind the fact that you've asked God a question, and be patient that God will eventually answer it. What else can you do?