How important should the Joseph Smith papyri be?

[_Uncle Ed]

I think Joseph did try to coach these experiences in the metaphysical/spiritual. There is plenty of evidence showing this. It doesn't lessen the evidence Joseph was also trying to say he had physical plates. The whole point of the 8 witnesses was not to convince them so much as it was to convince his other followers and potential followers that he had real plates. I can't remember who( I think it might have been Joseph's brother William) that says they were uncomfortable with Joseph's witness statement for the 8. There is also plenty of evidence he had at least a prop covered by cloth. Emma says she touched them covered. This evidence says that if he didn't really have ancient plates then he is lying about it or has to be majorly deluding himself that he is being honest with others about it. I doubt he was that deluded and knew he was lying, just as he knew he was lying about polygamy. Pious frauds tend to justify there lies as we know Joseph did. Lying for the Lord.

"Coaching", yes I buy that. But Jesus "coached" and so do all religious leaders.

But by asserting that Joseph Smith knew he was lying, you make the whole story and reality of Mormonism more complex. His behavior otherwise does not fit that of a knowing liar. He went forward into mounting persecution and hardship without a backward glance. He was consistent in his "lies" and liars are the antithesis of consistent. Their tissues of lies are shredded by their inconsistencies. Joseph Smith's "lies" continue to power a vital religion. If he was so transparently a liar he never would have gained and held and grown the following he did: compare ALL other "brands" of Mormonism, dismal or feeble at best. His "witnesses" must have been convinced on a deep enough level that they had had an experience of seeing "the plates". Joseph Smith was the reason, they could not have seen anything without him. So there must have been something "other worldly" going on when Joseph Smith was around. Taken together with the propensity to believe in his witnesses and followers generally, the group dynamic of belief must have been very palpable. Remember the Kirtland temple visionaries; it all started with Joseph Smith declaring that angels were present....

[_ludwigm]

There is the Kirtland temple vision experience shared with only Oliver Cowdery, while on the other side of the curtain the congregation of c. a thousand saw and heard nothing.

Yeah !

There appeared:
- the Lord (D&C 110:2)
- Moses (D&C 110:11)
- Elias the translation error of KJV (D&C 110:12)
- Elijah (D&C 110:13)

A real angelic tumult...

Probably they had a good stage-manager who arranged their coming-on to the scene (a higher god from a galaxy far far away?), or the later ones had simply to wait behind the corner --- to appear before The Man To Praise, Who Communed With Jehovah?

(listen http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5id63Twddk while reading this)

[_Chap]

... So there must have been something "other worldly" going on when Joseph Smith was around. ...

Nope. There have been plenty of people who gathered legions of credulous followers. How about the People's Temple? The Raelians? All those Indian 'god-men'?

Some people just have the skills to induce belief. No supernatural explanation needed.

[_Themis]

But by asserting that Joseph Smith knew he was lying, you make the whole story and reality of Mormonism more complex.

In what way? We already know the Book of Mormon, Book of Abraham, etc are fiction. We know he had a prop based on his and other statements. You need to engage the evidence here. We have stories of Joseph running with the plates to protect them from capture. The eight witness testimony is very clear on what it is trying to say. Do you really think Joseph would not understand what he is trying to claim? If so, I guess you must go for the majorly deluded Joseph.

His behavior otherwise does not fit that of a knowing liar. He went forward into mounting persecution and hardship without a backward glance.

Pious fraud. Do you understand what that is? It is someone who believes what they are doing is right, but are also willing to lie. Lie for the greater good is a common justification. This is the whole idea behind lying for the lord. We know Joseph lied about polygamy.

He was consistent in his "lies" and liars are the antithesis of consistent.

Not good liars or if one keeps lying simple. Polygamy was easy to lie about, but harder to keep secret. Lying about the having plates is also easy to be consistent with even though we have plenty of evidence including the Book of Mormon that show his claims are not true. Again, engage the evidence like the plates were always covered. How many said they saw the plates covered? Are you saying Joseph did not use any kind of prop or say real ancient plates?

Joseph Smith's "lies" continue to power a vital religion.

So to with L Ron Hubbard. Care to try again.

If he was so transparently a liar he never would have gained and held and grown the following he did: compare ALL other "brands" of Mormonism, dismal or feeble at best. His "witnesses" must have been convinced on a deep enough level that they had had an experience of seeing "the plates". Joseph Smith was the reason, they could not have seen anything without him. So there must have been something "other worldly" going on when Joseph Smith was around. Taken together with the propensity to believe in his witnesses and followers generally, the group dynamic of belief must have been very palpable. Remember the Kirtland temple visionaries; it all started with Joseph Smith declaring that angels were present....

This is what pious frauds are all about. Good ones are charismatic, which Joseph was, and good at playing roles and tricking people. No need for anything other worldly. Especially when we have so much evidence of his lies and trickery(again engage the evidence). Religions are built by people like Joseph. Many others never get them off the ground. We have a world full of religions.

[_Themis]

... So there must have been something "other worldly" going on when Joseph Smith was around. ...

Nope. There have been plenty of people who gathered legions of credulous followers. How about the People's Temple? The Raelians? All those Indian 'god-men'?

Some people just have the skills to induce belief. No supernatural explanation needed.

Not to mention legions of willing gullible people. Humans really have a long way to go.

[_Themis]

There is the Kirtland temple vision experience shared with only Oliver Cowdery, while on the other side of the curtain the congregation of c. a thousand saw and heard nothing. We have a voice "like the rushing of many waters" and "his countenance was like lightning", yet a simple drapery is sufficient to obscure all sight and sound from the multitude. We have Joseph Smith waking up on his back gazing into heaven following the first vision. We have Martin Harris in Kirtland later on explaining that he saw the "plates and angel" with his "spiritual eyes", thus causing the furor that ended up driving Warren Parrish and his group out of the church and into physical possession of the temple, and Joseph Smith fleeing for his life.

All the experiences you bring up I would agree are in the metaphysical/spiritual. I am talking about the other events and evidence that show Joseph was trying to present to the world and followers that he had real physical plates. Take Emma's statement about cleaning around the plates as they lie on a table covered by a cloth. Are we really supposed to think this experience is in the metaphysical if she is not lying about it?

[_Uncle Ed]

There is the Kirtland temple vision experience shared with only Oliver Cowdery, while on the other side of the curtain the congregation of c. a thousand saw and heard nothing. We have a voice "like the rushing of many waters" and "his countenance was like lightning", yet a simple drapery is sufficient to obscure all sight and sound from the multitude. We have Joseph Smith waking up on his back gazing into heaven following the first vision. We have Martin Harris in Kirtland later on explaining that he saw the "plates and angel" with his "spiritual eyes", thus causing the furor that ended up driving Warren Parrish and his group out of the church and into physical possession of the temple, and Joseph Smith fleeing for his life.

All the experiences you bring up I would agree are in the metaphysical/spiritual. I am talking about the other events and evidence that show Joseph was trying to present to the world and followers that he had real physical plates. Take Emma's statement about cleaning around the plates as they lie on a table covered by a cloth. Are we really supposed to think this experience is in the metaphysical if she is not lying about it?

This is succinct enough to respond to: I'm out of time:

So do we have an admission that "the metaphysical" exists, at least theoretically? by the way, "metaphysical" is my preferred word, in place of the popularly used "paranormal" or "supernatural", because "metaphysical" means, to my mind, something beyond the ken of human physical or empirical senses, even augmented senses, but is not in any way "magical" or superstitious: it is simply unknown by empirical means. Thus Joseph Smith et al.'s experiences with the metaphysical do not become apparent to others nearby, those experiences take place "somewhere else", as it were. The mind is fully, literally engaged, the body far less so, and nearby observers won't see or hear a thing. (eta: think, Ellie Arroway in Carl Sagan's "Contact", experiencing along with four others a metaphysical event while observed by millions, only to be accused as in cahoots with a billionaire shyster trying to pull a fast one over the whole world.)

Gold plates: I don't know. We have a problem, stemming from the assertion of their literal, physical reality, and their "vanishing act". I have never been able to believe that a woman as independent and strong willed as Emma, could possibly clean around "the plates" as they lay there covered by a cloth, and not get a peek at them. So did she get a peek at what she believed or what was literally there? Were the trees literally lit by virtual fire brighter than the sun at noon day or was the first vision all in Joseph Smith's head? Gold plates and a physical "prop" to transmit the vision of them by? "Pious frauds" don't usually come up with props that others can't look at or that look unconvincing while turning the pages "plate by plate". What do we have here?

I disagree that the Book of Mormon is "known to be fiction". I believe that it is fictitious in much the same way a "historical novel" (such as the Iliad and Odyssey are fictitious) is, but possibly based on some core reality now lost. The actual "Author Is God", and Joseph Smith was merely the receptor. But then, I put all such writings into the same category, and imagine "God" inspiring an ongoing literature that illustrates the purpose and direction we are to take in life, and that would be "immortal life": this world is temporary in the extreme and focuses our attention on the temporary concerns kept exclusively connected to mortality, which is as intended, to provide all the opposition one could possibly require in order to learn from making choices: Joseph Smith's religion, as you say, is just one of "a world full of religions". That appears to be "God's business" and not simply to be dismissed as the ravings or connivings of men....

[_Themis]

So do we have an admission that "the metaphysical" exists, at least theoretically? by the way, "metaphysical" is my preferred word, in place of the popularly used "paranormal" or "supernatural", because "metaphysical" means, to my mind, something beyond the ken of human physical or empirical senses, even augmented senses, but is not in any way "magical" or superstitious: it is simply unknown by empirical means.

No admission either way. I just use the term that people use to describe certain experiences they have. Not that the experiences are supernatural in any way.

Gold plates: I don't know. We have a problem, stemming from the assertion of their literal, physical reality, and their "vanishing act".

That is the issue here that Joseph asserted to having physical plates given him by an Angel. We have his words of how he says he got them. We have much more then Emma's words asserting real plates are being claimed by Joseph to the world. The 3 and 8 witnesses are specifically made by Joseph to assert their existence. Joseph has to have a mental problem to not know people are going to think he is not asserting physical plates.

I have never been able to believe that a woman as independent and strong willed as Emma, could possibly clean around "the plates" as they lay there covered by a cloth, and not get a peek at them. So did she get a peek at what she believed or what was literally there? Were the trees literally lit by virtual fire brighter than the sun at noon day or was the first vision all in Joseph Smith's head? Gold plates and a physical "prop" to transmit the vision of them by? "Pious frauds" don't usually come up with props that others can't look at or that look unconvincing while turning the pages "plate by plate". What do we have here?

We have much more then Emma's statement. Joseph first vision is not the issue here. Pius frauds do all kind of different things depending on who they are and the environment they are influenced by. I see no problem if Joseph and others made a prop but were not confident enough to give open access to anyone. The kinder-hook plates were a decent enough prop that they allowed open access. Perhaps Joseph's prop was not as good, which is wehy even you think the 3 and 8 witnesses experience was metaphysical in nature.

I disagree that the Book of Mormon is "known to be fiction". I believe that it is fictitious in much the same way a "historical novel" (such as the Iliad and Odyssey are fictitious) is, but possibly based on some core reality now lost. The actual "Author Is God", and Joseph Smith was merely the receptor. But then, I put all such writings into the same category, and imagine "God" inspiring an ongoing literature that illustrates the purpose and direction we are to take in life, and that would be "immortal life": this world is temporary in the extreme and focuses our attention on the temporary concerns kept exclusively connected to mortality, which is as intended, to provide all the opposition one could possibly require in order to learn from making choices: Joseph Smith's religion, as you say, is just one of "a world full of religions". That appears to be "God's business" and not simply to be dismissed as the ravings or connivings of men....

I think the evidence is clear, and you seem to admit that there was no physical Nephites or Lamanates. Again the issue is whether Joseph is lying to everyone about having physical ancient gold plates. I and others have provided evidence that this is what he was asserting. You need to deal with this evidence and then provide some of your own that he was trying to assert something else. Good luck.