Mormonism's Greatest Downfall.

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_EAllusion
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Re: Mormonism's Greatest Downfall.

Post by _EAllusion »

Speaking of gibberish how about I reword what I said with something else I wrote:

Either we have access to the moral principles to judge benevolence (moral goodness) or we don't. If we do, then we can judge God's actions based on whether they are in accordance with the principles of morality. You can say that God isn't subject to the principles of morality, or that she is subject to some moral principles, but those are beyond our understanding. God has more moral depth than we can know. But what you have done then is reduced the claim "God is good" down to gibberish. What does it mean to say that God follows morality that is in principle unknowable to us when its clear she violates what is known to us? Saying God does the right thing, but we don't know what the right thing is no different practically than saying whatever God does is good because God does it. If we are going to say "God is benevolent" that statement is going to have to generate some expectations for us if it is to be meaningful at all.

So if you want to say a god exists with certain properties, God's ways must be knowable to us, at least to some extent. We must be able to say, for example, that it's generally wrong to allow a person who's dying anyway to suffer horribly if one can prevent it with no risk or effort, and that therefore if God does so routinely, in almost every case where she could have prevented it, she has almost certainly acted wrongly in some of those cases, unless we have good reason to think not preventing it served some greater good. If not, what exactly do we know about morality then? ... Similarly, if it seems transparently clear, according to our human notions of justice, that it is unjust to punish someone infinitely for a finite offense, especially under circumstances where it cannot serve to rehabilitate the offender, where his punishment cannot possibly serve as an example or deterrent to others, and where he cannot possibly have made an informed choice, we must be able to say that it really is unjust, or else admit that we have no idea what justice means when speaking about God. [EA: This was orginally addressed to an Evangelical]

You have to be able to show that the way God operates is at least plausibly the way we might expect an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent being to operate. You can't deflect objections of this sort by simply observing we don't know how God would do things, a.k.a. the ways of God are mysterious. If God-theory cannot inform our expectations of how reality is supposed to look like, then you've reduced God to a shot in the dark.

Chances are Bob wants to say something like "God is good." But what he means by "good" isn't what we ordinarily mean by it. His version of "good" doesn't contain meaningful content. Instead is a just a trite tautology that reduces into "God does what God does" as he's chosen to dismiss moral criticism of his proposed ideas about God by stating that God's just purposes are beyond our capacity to grasp. And that's gibberish as far as trying to figure out what God will do or what it means to be moral as far as God is concerned. And if he were to base his views on what is moral on what God does, that' would be completely arbitrary, as he'd have no moral basis for picking God over any other subject like myself. A wiser person, or at least one who has studied basic metaethics and learned a little bit, probably should just admit that such things damage the believer's case, but not irreparably so given all this other reason to believe in God's goodness that exist. (Of course, it doesn't, but let's play pretend for a moment.)
_beastie
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Re: Mormonism's Greatest Downfall.

Post by _beastie »

However, he does raise some interesting points -- one of which is that a poster's merits should be judged in part on the number of responses he gets. EAllusion gets few. I wonder why?


EA is far more studied in philosophy in general, and in particular in regards to the theism/atheism debate, than the vast majority of posters. I think they avoid him because he's over their heads, and would hand them their head on a platter. I've seen him do it many times on ZLMB.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Brackite
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Re: Mormonism's Greatest Downfall.

Post by _Brackite »

rcrocket wrote:
And, isn't it obvious why? A very small group short on women. Recall, they had to go back to Jerusalem to get them. "Where da white women?" I don't think polygamy would have worked all that well for decades.

Nope -- the Book of Mormon condones plural marriage. Come on; where do you think Joseph Smith got the idea?





Here is again Jacob Chapter Two, Verses 23 through 34:



Jacob 2:23-34:

23 But the word of God burdens me because of your grosser crimes. For behold, thus saith the Lord: This people begin to wax in iniquity; they understand not the scriptures, for they seek to excuse themselves in committing whoredoms, because of the things which were written concerning David, and Solomon his son.
24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.
25 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.
26 Wherefore, I the Lord God will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old.
27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none;
28 For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.
29 Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes.
30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.
31 For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem, yea, and in all the lands of my people, because of the wickedness and abominations of their husbands.
32 And I will not suffer, saith the Lord of Hosts, that the cries of the fair daughters of this people, which I have led out of the land of Jerusalem, shall come up unto me against the men of my people, saith the Lord of Hosts.
33 For they shall not lead away captive the daughters of my people because of their tenderness, save I shall visit them with a sore curse, even unto destruction; for they shall not commit whoredoms, like unto them of old, saith the Lord of Hosts.
34 And now behold, my brethren, ye know that these commandments were given to our father, Lehi; wherefore, ye have known them before; and ye have come unto great condemnation; for ye have done these things which ye ought not to have done.






rcrocket wrote:
Give up.

The Book of Mormon condones polygamy just as the D&C does today -- and God commands it at times.





The Lord God has Never Commanded Polygamy. Joseph Smith and Brigham Young Commanded Polygamy. Polygamy is an Abomination before the Lord God.

Here is again Jacob Chapter Two, Verse 24:


Jacob 2:24:

[24] Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.

"And I've said it before, you want to know what Joseph Smith looked like in Nauvoo, just look at Trump." - Fence Sitter
_JohnStuartMill
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Re: Mormonism's Greatest Downfall.

Post by _JohnStuartMill »

rcrocket wrote:I don't like what Thames says about me -- I think it is just the ravings of an apostate.

However, he does raise some interesting points -- one of which is that a poster's merits should be judged in part on the number of responses he gets. EAllusion gets few. I wonder why?
Because people know when they're licked. "Justin Thames" doesn't account for the possibility that a post can be so well-thought-out as to foreclose any response that doesn't make its author look like an idiot. The fact that you are still replying in this thread proves that you're making the same mistake "Justin" is, actually. Hrm...

I wonder why?
Last edited by Guest on Fri May 01, 2009 1:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
"You clearly haven't read [Dawkins'] book." -Kevin Graham, 11/04/09
_rcrocket

Re: Mormonism's Greatest Downfall.

Post by _rcrocket »

beastie wrote:EA is far more studied in philosophy in general, and in particular in regards to the theism/atheism debate, than the vast majority of posters. I think they avoid him because he's over their heads, and would hand them their head on a platter. I've seen him do it many times on ZLMB.


No. They avoid him because he can't communicate.
_beastie
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Re: Mormonism's Greatest Downfall.

Post by _beastie »

No. They avoid him because he can't communicate.


I'm sorry that you are unable to understand his posts.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_JohnStuartMill
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Re: Mormonism's Greatest Downfall.

Post by _JohnStuartMill »

rcrocket wrote:
beastie wrote:EA is far more studied in philosophy in general, and in particular in regards to the theism/atheism debate, than the vast majority of posters. I think they avoid him because he's over their heads, and would hand them their head on a platter. I've seen him do it many times on ZLMB.


No. They avoid him because he can't communicate.

Oh, is he a "poor writer", Justin? :lol:

EAllusion is probably the clearest writer on the boards. If you don't understand him, it's either because your reading comprehension is awful, or because you're just not capable of understanding advanced topics.
"You clearly haven't read [Dawkins'] book." -Kevin Graham, 11/04/09
_Brackite
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Re: Mormonism's Greatest Downfall.

Post by _Brackite »

There are a couple of more Places within the Book of Mormon where it states that Polygamy is an Abomination before the Lord God, in addition to Jacob Chapter Two.

Here is Mosiah Chapter 11, Verses 1-4, and Verse 14:


Mosiah 11:1-4, & 14:

[1] And now it came to pass that Zeniff conferred the kingdom upon Noah, one of his sons; therefore Noah began to reign in his stead; and he did not walk in the ways of his father.

[2] For behold, he did not keep the commandments of God, but he did walk after the desires of his own heart. And he had many wives and concubines. And he did cause his people to commit sin, and do that which was abominable in the sight of the Lord. Yea, and they did commit whoredoms and all manner of wickedness.

[3] And he laid a tax of one fifth part of all they possessed, a fifth part of their gold and of their silver, and a fifth part of their ziff, and of their copper, and of their brass and their iron; and a fifth part of their fatlings; and also a fifth part of all their grain.

[4] And all this did he take to support himself, and his wives and his concubines; and also his priests, and their wives and their concubines; thus he had changed the affairs of the kingdom.


...


[14] And it came to pass that he placed his heart upon his riches, and he spent his time in riotous living with his wives and his concubines; and so did also his priests spend their time with harlots.





Here is now Ether Chapter 10, Verses 5-7:


Ether 10:5-7:

[5] And it came to pass that Riplakish did not do that which was right in the sight of the Lord, for he did have many wives and concubines, and did lay that upon men's shoulders which was grievous to be borne; yea, he did tax them with heavy taxes; and with the taxes he did build many spacious buildings.

[6] And he did erect him an exceedingly beautiful throne; and he did build many prisons, and whoso would not be subject unto taxes he did cast into prison; and whoso was not able to pay taxes he did cast into prison; and he did cause that they should labor continually for their support; and whoso refused to labor he did cause to be put to death.

[7] Wherefore he did obtain all his fine work, yea, even his fine gold he did cause to be refined in prison, and all manner of fine workmanship he did cause to be wrought in prison. And it came to pass that he did afflict the people with his whoredoms and abominations.
"And I've said it before, you want to know what Joseph Smith looked like in Nauvoo, just look at Trump." - Fence Sitter
_JohnStuartMill
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Re: Mormonism's Greatest Downfall.

Post by _JohnStuartMill »

Wow, that rcrockett guy is a total idiot. I guess the Utah Bar has to set the standard pretty low, given all the Mormos in the state.
"You clearly haven't read [Dawkins'] book." -Kevin Graham, 11/04/09
_Ray A

Re: Mormonism's Greatest Downfall.

Post by _Ray A »

I think Brackite makes a lot of sense. It seems quite clear where the Book of Mormon stands on polygamy.
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Last edited by _Ray A on Fri May 01, 2009 1:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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