Something Troubling in Sunday School

[_LDSToronto]

I think that you missed the boat on this one. Why is the age limit for women at 21? For one simple reason: to allow them to get married to a return missionary. The male returns at 21. The women can leave at 21. See the point? Eternal marriage Trump's missionary work for young ladies.

Why doesn't it eternal marriage Trump missionary work for young men?

H.

[_just me]

One interesting thing that has been touched upon is the way many women have found to "rule the roost" in the face of patriarchy.

I think this is a very deep, fascinating and multi-faceted issue. I don't think it is something easily understood or solved.

One of the effects of aggrandizing motherhood and putting women in a seperate sphere, the home, has been that women have then attempted to exert what control they could within that sphere.

We have these horrible jokes of men being the head of the family but the woman being the neck that moves the head. This is awful on so many levels. It is insidious. It reflects the idea that a woman must manipulate her husband or men in order to have control or say over her destiny, her family, etc. It also sends the message that men are not capable leaders. It sends the message that it is normal and okay for women to be subordinate to men.

We also tend to blame the mother if anything goes wrong with the children. The woman has much greater things expected of her in the childrearing than the man. Because her children reflect on her to such a degree, and certainly more than they reflect on the father, she has a lot invested in seeing them act a certain way and become a certain type of adult. We hear "Where is the mother" and variations on that FAR more than "Where is the father."
It is far more acceptable to be a deadbeat dad than a deadbeat mom. There are totally different expectations from mothers and fathers.

There is something strange that goes on. I am not sure how exactly to explain it. Men in the church are told to be the leader of their home, and I am sure some rule with an iron fist, yet modern men are more inclined to see their wives as equal partners. I think this leaves confusion and often leaves a family with no leader at all. This can have disasterous effects when the woman stands by waiting for the man to lead and he never does. Or, in the case where the man just simply will not lead the woman often takes the lead out of necessity. Remember, if her family fails she will be blamed or at least feel deep guilt and shame over it. She also has a deep-seated desire to see her children happy and successful.

I have actually listened to lessons where the women were told not to step on their husbands toes as the leader of the home. This means that we are supposed to have him lead FHE and prayer, etc. Well, many men simply do not take the lead in those things. This leaves the woman in a damned-if-you-do damned-if-you-don't position. She is going against what God wants in both situations.

The men have been told to be kind and loving and patient and understanding. They have not been shown how to create boundaries (neither have the women).. They are taught to be followers, not leaders (so are the women). They have had their natural male sexuality demonized and stripped from them. They have been made to feel like they can never measure up (so have the women).

What is so strange is how feminized the gospel is, yet how patriarchal it is. I really don't get it! Maybe it is a paradox. And the gospel is almost completely from a male perspective. Even the fact that we are talking about women holding the priesthood is kind of sad because all the terms are MALE terms. I wonder if we'd be better off creating something new and female with new words. Since our entire language is male-centric, I don't think this is an issue that can be addressed easily.

I can't tell you how many times I have heard male leaders say from the pulpit that women are better/more spiritual than men or that women are God's greatest creation. I can only imagine what kind of message this sends to men. And then it is strange for the women to hear, too. If we are so fantastic why are we not given equal rights? Why are women not equally represented.

Ok, bringing it back to the control women try to exert within the home I have to go back to how terrifying it is to be out of control over your life. In the past a woman had to rely on her husband, father or sons for her survival. Now, in our society, women are able to earn their own wage and own property, etc. so many women can have much more control over their own survival.

Many women still put themselves in a position of being at the mercy of someone else, her husband, for her survival. In the church this is seen as normal and desirable...even part of God's Plan of Happiness.
Many women in the church get married very young, a lot are finishing college, but not all. Those who do not finish college are economically disadvantaged more than women are already. Women still don't earn equal pay for equal work.

Now, many of these women go on to have children young. Those who did finish college often do not work while the children are young. Staying out of the working force can lead to more disadvantage. It will be harder to compete with someone who has an unbroken working record. Luckily, many employers count life experience now when looking at a resume. But a woman who has young children or takes leaves to have children may find herself being passed over for advancement within a company. Not only that, but since LDS women still feel pressure to be a SAHM they will often work low wage shift jobs in order to fulfill what they believe is their motherly duty.

This is my long-winded way of saying that being a woman can be a terrifying experience because you are often put in a position where you have no control over your own life and survival. It seems natural that she would use whatever methods she deemed necessary to create a safe and secure environment for herself and her offspring.

The church *does* teach women to become educated. Yet, they also teach her to get married as a virgin and not to delay having children for worldly reasons. These feel contradictory to me. In order to get married in the temple I got married at age 18. In order not to delay having children for worldly reasons I stopped college after 2 years and began having kids at 20. I supported my husbands career goals and I hitched my wagon to his star. Now, you may say this was my personal choice and my own fault and that is true. However, I would not have made these same decisions had it not been for the teachings of the LDS church that I was raised in. I am not alone. Most of my friends and family followed a very similar path.

*snicker* Sorry for the wall of text!

[_Yoda]

Very few men can use the priesthood card on them and expect to get away with it.

But it's a card that should never be played in the first place. That's the point.

You may have missed my post, which was in response to your inane "shouting message":

Okay lets come together in one big prayer group to pray to heavenly father that he would allow women to hold the priesthood. Consig and just me would you both like to lead us in prayer? Lets all ask heavenly father if he can do this for all the women out there in the LDS church who wish to have the priesthood.

We seem to forget who Mormons claim leads the church.

Quit being an ass and trivializing something you clearly have no understanding of.

In my opinion, there is one reason women do not hold the priesthood in the Church, and his name is Brigham Young. He allowed his racism and his sexism to interfere with Joseph Smith's vision for who should hold the priesthood and how. In 1978, the racism issue was finally overturned, and blacks were given the priesthood. The same will happen for women. The Relief Society was originally created as a stand alone organization for the women of the Church, meant to be on equal footing with the Priesthood. Brigham Young reestablished the Relief Society as an auxiliary after the Saints' exodus to Utah. He had to be prodded to even reestablish the Relief Society at all.

[_stemelbow]

Men--How comfortable would you feel confessing a sexual sin to a female bishop?

So you really think a man is comfortable confesing a sexual sin to a man? Indeed, it seems to me many issues raised here have to do with how unconfortable some of the men here were when they had to confess a sexual sin to a man. "its not right, they complain"

For me, I can't see how it would differ. I wouldn't be comfortable either way, personally.

Thanks for the cream puff that I could easily knock out of the park. Those don't come around here often.

[_why me]

If the church really wants women to marry young, then it seems that giving them the option of going on a mission at age 19 would be best. Then they could get the mission out of the way and start thinking about marriage when they return at age 20 or 21, similar to what the men do.

Gordon B. Hinckley specifically stated that the age is held up for women to reduce the number of women who go. He did not say why the church wants to reduce the number of women who serve. To my knowledge, that's the only kind of official explanation the church has ever given.

Let me put it this way: When my second daughter put in her missionary papers the mission president who interviewed her told her that it is perfectly okay for her to cancel her papers if she is getting married. Marriage was more important. The LDS church does not encourage young women to go on missions. They have a different responsibility to perform.

Now if they wish to serve a mission, they are encouraged to do so. But it is not mandatory or stressed as it is for young men. Young boys know that a mission awaits them. Young girls do not have such pressure. They are freer to decide their options.

[_MsJack]

Now of course, if aperson believes that it is all man-made well, they can moan about the LDS church and its denial of priesthood for women.

Good. 'Cuz that's exactly what I'm gonna do.

When my second daughter put in her missionary papers the mission president who interviewed her told her that it is perfectly okay for her to cancel her papers if she is getting married. Marriage was more important. The LDS church does not encourage young women to go on missions. They have a different responsibility to perform.

Oh, I know that many members believe that the reason the age is held up has to do with marriage. But it's a notion that runs contrary to logic, and the church has never officially said as much.

[_Yoda]

But members in good standing can't actually do so unless they want to take the argument to god.

Who says we haven't?

As a member in good standing, I firmly believe that women in the Church will have their own arm of priesthood reestablished. The fact that it is being discussed is a move in the right direction.

[_just me]

I think that you missed the boat on this one. Why is the age limit for women at 21? For one simple reason: to allow them to get married to a return missionary. The male returns at 21. The women can leave at 21. See the point? Eternal marriage Trump's missionary work for young ladies.

If the church really wants women to marry young, then it seems that giving them the option of going on a mission at age 19 would be best. Then they could get the mission out of the way and start thinking about marriage when they return at age 20 or 21, similar to what the men do.

Gordon B. Hinckley specifically stated that the age is held up for women to reduce the number of women who go. He did not say why the church wants to reduce the number of women who serve. To my knowledge, that's the only kind of official explanation the church has ever given.

I was always taught that the most important mission I could serve was to have babies and raise them in the church.

[_why me]

Here is an off-shoot question, but I think it helps put things in perspective. Men--How comfortable would you feel confessing a sexual sin to a female bishop?

I think that it would turn me on depending on how graphic I would be allowed to be. Next question.

[_LDSToronto]

I was always taught that the most important mission I could serve was to have babies and raise them in the church.

This makes me really sad, for you and or all women in the church. But especially for you.

I am so glad my daughter will never grow up to hear this message, but I'm still very sad that you felt your life had only one purpose. You are way more than a baby factory.

H.