Tobin wrote: You may be right Quasi if what we see today is all that Mormonism is. Right now, there is a very corporate conservative Mormonism that teaches that business success as an indication of a person's spiritual and leadership value that has gained control of the mainstream. It isn't interested in real spiritual experiences like Paul or Joseph Smith had, but instead has focused on feelings and urban legends as substitutes.
I am not sure that this is true. But I do think that general conference needs more excitement. The GAs are speaking in monotone, far different from the good ol days from George A. Smith. However, the message that the church puts out is a beckon of light for humanity. And if one attempts to follow the advice and instructions, one will not go wrong. And the world would certainly be a better place. I don't think that the LDS church has led anyone astray with its teachings because they are centered in Christ, the holy ghost and with the Father.
But is the church charismatic now? No.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
Tobin wrote: You may be right Quasi if what we see today is all that Mormonism is. Right now, there is a very corporate conservative Mormonism that teaches that business success as an indication of a person's spiritual and leadership value that has gained control of the mainstream. It isn't interested in real spiritual experiences like Paul or Joseph Smith had, but instead has focused on feelings and urban legends as substitutes.
I am not sure that this is true. But I do think that general conference needs more excitement. The GAs are speaking in monotone, far different from the good ol days from George A. Smith. However, the message that the church puts out is a beckon of light for humanity. And if one attempts to follow the advice and instructions, one will not go wrong. And the world would certainly be a better place. I don't think that the LDS church has led anyone astray with its teachings because they are centered in Christ, the holy ghost and with the Father.
But is the church charismatic now? No.
I think the Mormon Church today has become what Joseph Smith was warned about in the First Vision - "they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof."
Gifts of the spirit are rare. These are the things that tell one that these are the Lord's people. They presume to be God's people, but if you read the Book of Mormon you see they are gentiles who have been given a gift they do not truly appreciate. They do not seek the good things from God, but instead look to quaint tales and feelings instead. They pretend to hold the priesthood and keys to the kingdom of God, but do not realize that no man has claim to such things unless God gives them to them directly and can not be gotten from any man.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Tobin wrote: Gifts of the spirit are rare. These are the things that tell one that these are the Lord's people. They presume to be God's people, but if you read the Book of Mormon you see they are gentiles who have been given a gift they do not truly appreciate. They do not seek the good things from God, but instead look to quaint tales and feelings instead. They pretend to hold the priesthood and keys to the kingdom of God, but do not realize that no man has claim to such things unless God gives them to them directly and can not be gotten from any man.
If you are speaking about the general membership, I can see your point. However generalizations are difficult to make. I do see that there are members of the church who have become rather complacent. I am not sure if they are having spiritual experiences and they seem caught up in capitalism and its values. The church has become for them a functional church: do your callings, go through the motions and yet in everyday life become a part of the world.
The LDS church is not a 'feelings' church. It is a church of spiritual experiences. It has always been. But it is up to the members to get back on track so that these spiritual experiences can happen.
The critics and the antimormons claim that the church is about a warm bosom or a warm fuzzy. It ain't. The witnesses did not have a warm fuzzy. They had an experience.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
café crema wrote:We've been wanting to get over there to look for geodes but things have been conspiring against us.
Really won't find much unless you take a bulldozer with you. When we were kids, we went to the park to get geodes and sold them in the front yard. One time, some tourists were driving by, and asked us if geodes were some kind of squash. Oh!! Crunch! So delicious! OOPS. I think I have some broken teeth!!
The Mississippi River valley is really buggy, but I wouldn't trade it for everything. The river flows through my veins. The end of a forty-mile drive is a spiritual experience.
Huckelberry said: I see the order and harmony to be the very image of God which smiles upon us each morning as we awake.
café crema wrote:We've been wanting to get over there to look for geodes but things have been conspiring against us.
Really won't find much unless you take a bulldozer with you. When we were kids, we went to the park to get geodes and sold them in the front yard. One time, some tourists were driving by, and asked us if geodes were some kind of squash. Oh!! Crunch! So delicious! OOPS. I think I have some broken teeth!!
The Mississippi River valley is really buggy, but I wouldn't trade it for everything. The river flows through my veins. The end of a forty-mile drive is a spiritual experience.
There are supposed to be a couple of people who plow up their land for geode hunting in Hamilton and Keokuk. Still hoping to get some for my little fish ponds.
café crema wrote: There are supposed to be a couple of people who plow up their land for geode hunting in Hamilton and Keokuk. Still hoping to get some for my little fish ponds.
Wonderful. I wish you success with the digging and with your fish ponds.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
café crema wrote: There are supposed to be a couple of people who plow up their land for geode hunting in Hamilton and Keokuk. Still hoping to get some for my little fish ponds.
Wonderful. I wish you success with the digging and with your fish ponds.
Thanks both of them are a lot of fun for all of us.
There are supposed to be a couple of people who plow up their land for geode hunting in Hamilton and Keokuk. Still hoping to get some for my little fish ponds.
Now that makes sense for geode-rich farmers. Excellent crop!
Huckelberry said: I see the order and harmony to be the very image of God which smiles upon us each morning as we awake.
Quasimodo wrote:As usual, Night, I can't agree with what you've said. I think Joseph Smith's teachings will gradually fade into obscurity. I do really admire your commitment to your beliefs, though.
In what time frame do you expect this to happen? Just how sure are you?
The world is a very powerful influence on the souls of man. Even the gospel had to hide in the beast of Rome in order to be saved for the time of growth. If the second witness of the gospel shrinks it will still be alive enough to do what it is supposed to do. This is called faith. Faith in the final outcome and not in the day to day details. When we embrace day to day we blow in the wind and are tossed about with no purpose or direction.
Esther 4:14
For if thou altogether holdest thy peace at this time, then shall there enlargement and deliverance arise to the Jews from another place; but thou and thy father's house shall be destroyed: and who knoweth whether thou art come to the kingdom for such a time as this?
The will of God will happen. If one falls so as to not do the will of the Father then someone else will arise. This is faith. And with Mordecai it was faith even to death. I pray for the strength of Mordecai. I think you must ask your self a serious question. Just where do you place your faith so it is steady and does not turn to and fro?
Quasimodo wrote:As usual, Night, I can't agree with what you've said. I think Joseph Smith's teachings will gradually fade into obscurity. I do really admire your commitment to your beliefs, though.
I really can't join you in your admiration for beliefs held with a much greater strength of commitment than any known evidence warrants. There is a certain heroic craziness about it, I grant you, but there are risks too. What happens if two Nightlions meet, each committed with all their soul to two incompatible beliefs? The rest of us who are not interested in putting ourselves in harm's way for theological propositions had better take cover when that happens.
But as you hint, there is one comforting fact about religions: so many of them have faded back into obscurity in the history of humanity so far that there is no reason to think that any of them, let alone an outlier like Mormonism, will be around for ever.
Zadok: I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis. Maksutov: That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
