Zerinus and Introspection Illusion

[_zerinus]

From the news of bannings and posting habits on other sites, especially MD&DB I have to shake my head in literal cogdis that Zerinus is for real, and just a bit upset from being betrayed by whom he would consider his own.

That was ages age and forgotten. I have been posting on CARM Forums for many years now and haven't had any problems. I have had more freedom of expression at CARM than I used to have at MD&D—although CARM is getting a bit boring now because it is becoming too much of “same ol, same ol”. I came here mainly to chat with Kerry, and I got sucked into other discussions. I will see how it goes. After a while I will probably not post here as often as I do now. I also have a blog which I would like to pay more attention to than I am doing now, and I don't have enough time to spread between all three.

[_RockSlider]

I've only visited CARM a couple of times. I perused your blog and did note it's heavy (what seemed to me) Evangelist topics themes.

I was interested (and meant to ask her about it) in Jersey Girl's brief comments which hinted at her knowledge and experience with evangelist counter cultures and the like. These are things foreign to me and perhaps others from this site, liberals at MD&D, the old and new NOM board etc. where the apologetic battles lines are typically between inactive, post or ex-mormons (critics) and the apologists.

From my limited viewpoint, the current threat to Mormonism lies with the fleeing members more so than the likes of CARM. What might be an interesting observation is that many of the current 'critics' were life long, top 10% orthodox members before their crash and it is still a steady stream of the once strong members leaving.

You are a different breed to me, being a CARM regular verses the likes of which we have interacted with for years i.e. those that despise the apostate critic.

What might I ask drew you to Mormonism verses CARM apologetics? Do you not have immediate and extended Mormon families with some family and friends struggling with crisis of faith issues? You seem to be far afield of the hometown battles, with much needed help on the home fronts?

[_Gadianton]

Rock,

At one time counter-cult ministries presented the only real public threat to Mormonism as it seems to me. Mormons were on the radar for EV Christians mainly because of the economic threat of walking into Christian communities and proselyting them. Note that Christian on Christian in-fighting can get even worse than Christian on Mormon attacks when ministries split and so on. It's all about money for any religion. I have extensive experience with Christian counter-cult ministries namely because in my mission, 86% of the population was Christian -- huge Christian centers everywhere.

In short, counter-cult ministries like CARM focus on completely vapid arguments that only toothless banjo-for-Jesus playing hicks would find convincing. For instance, citing Revelations 22:18 to say the Bible is complete. They get up in arms about Mormons claiming Jesus and Satan were brother in pre-existence. They especially go after Mormons for their belief in "works" to be saved rather than faith only. This is probably the main contention. Well, as you can see, life wouldn't be very challenging for a Mormon apologist if these were the best attacks available on your faith. Definitely understandable that Zarinus hides away at CARM in the shallow end of the pool. If they haven't kicked him out yet, it's because they don't see his arguments as powerful enough to be a threat.

[_zerinus]

I've only visited CARM a couple of times. I perused your blog and did note it's heavy (what seemed to me) Evangelist topics themes.

That is true, because when I started my debating career on the Internet, it started out with Evangelicals, and has mostly stayed that way, because they have been and still are the most vocal critics of Mormonism. They are also the most interesting to debate with, because they claim belief in the Bible, therefore there is a common ground in which debate can take place. The folks here don't believe in anything, therefore a common ground doesn't exist, or is much narrower, which makes discussion a lot harder.

I was interested (and meant to ask her about it) in Jersey Girl's brief comments which hinted at her knowledge and experience with evangelist counter cultures and the like.

You mean "counter cults," which is a glorified name for anti-Mormonism, and anti- anything that Evangelicals don't like, and would like to give the name of "cult" to.

These are things foreign to me and perhaps others from this site, liberals at MD&D, the old and new NOM board etc. where the apologetic battles lines are typically between inactive, post or ex-mormons (critics) and the apologists.

A lot of that is foreign to me as well, because I haven't had much occasion to interact with them.

From my limited viewpoint, the current threat to Mormonism lies with the fleeing members more so than the likes of CARM. What might be an interesting observation is that many of the current 'critics' were life long, top 10% orthodox members before their crash and it is still a steady stream of the once strong members leaving.

I have heard that as well, but I would need more accurate and reliable data to make an assessment.

You are a different breed to me, being a CARM regular verses the likes of which we have interacted with for years i.e. those that despise the apostate critic.

Possibly!

What might I ask drew you to Mormonism verses CARM apologetics?

Not sure of your question.

Do you not have immediate and extended Mormon families with some family and friends struggling with crisis of faith issues?

I don't. I am a convert. Most of my extended family members are not Mormons.

You seem to be far afield of the hometown battles, with much needed help on the home fronts?

Geographically I am far afield from Utah or other heavy Mormon concentrations; but in other respects, you need to clarify.

[_Craig Paxton]

That's a silly answer and a complete dodge of my question

Ask a silly question, and you get a silly answer.

Attempting to engage with this anonymous internet personality is a complete waist of our time. He/she/it is not interested in having an honest conversation...only the illusion of such. There are currently 8 threads on this board each attempting to have an honest open conversation with him/her/it...each has been spun into ridiculous illogical circles by said zerinus. If anyone has risen to the level of an internet Troll, zerinus certainly has met that definition. I for one am done making the attempt to engage with this individual.

[_spotlight]

although CARM is getting a bit boring now because it is becoming too much of “same ol, same ol”.

Try the EvC forum. (snickers to self)

[_Philo Sofee]

Rock,

At one time counter-cult ministries presented the only real public threat to Mormonism as it seems to me. Mormons were on the radar for EV Christians mainly because of the economic threat of walking into Christian communities and proselyting them. Note that Christian on Christian in-fighting can get even worse than Christian on Mormon attacks when ministries split and so on. It's all about money for any religion. I have extensive experience with Christian counter-cult ministries namely because in my mission, 86% of the population was Christian -- huge Christian centers everywhere.

In short, counter-cult ministries like CARM focus on completely vapid arguments that only toothless banjo-for-Jesus playing hicks would find convincing. For instance, citing Revelations 22:18 to say the Bible is complete. They get up in arms about Mormons claiming Jesus and Satan were brother in pre-existence. They especially go after Mormons for their belief in "works" to be saved rather than faith only. This is probably the main contention. Well, as you can see, life wouldn't be very challenging for a Mormon apologist if these were the best attacks available on your faith. Definitely understandable that Zarinus hides away at CARM in the shallow end of the pool. If they haven't kicked him out yet, it's because they don't see his arguments as powerful enough to be a threat.

Gad all I can say is God bless you. You are such a breath of fresh air I can't hardly stand it. When I grow up I want to have a mind as good as yours.

[_Philo Sofee]

Craig Paxton:
Attempting to engage with this anonymous internet personality is a complete waist of our time. He/she/it is not interested in having an honest conversation...only the illusion of such. There are currently 8 threads on this board each attempting to have an honest open conversation with him/her/it...each has been spun into ridiculous illogical circles by said zerinus. If anyone has risen to the level of an internet Troll, zerinus certainly has met that definition. I for one am done making the attempt to engage with this individual.

Philo:
With this impeccably logical argument I cannot disagree. However it heartens me that all of the lurkers get a real honest education about how fundamentally bankrupt apologetics really is. In that sense this has been invaluable. My testimony has been actually strengthened that apologetics is a complete sham. Therefore this has been very valuable time for me. The apologists need to find someone else who is a lot better at it than Zerinus has proven to be. I will be curious who they send next.

[_Philo Sofee]

Zerinus:
I have heard that as well, but I would need more accurate and reliable data to make an assessment.

Philo says:
You are in no moral or intellectual position to ask for accurate and reliable data based on your dismal performance of ignoring our requests from you for more accurate and reliable data concerning God, the Book of Mormon, and other subjects. Your hypocrisy is utterly breathtaking.

[_Doctor Steuss]

Stupidity and idiocy reigns supreme in this forum I can see. That is a remarkable achievement.

Something does seem to have recently tipped the scales in that direction. Seems to have taken place about 8 days ago.

Probably something to do with the lunar cycle, or Jupiter.