MG & JLHPROF: From Whence Come Spiritual Experiences?

[_grindael]

But I agree with your second statement. I think there are ways that God can organize and/or set up for people to understand His will. But I think the people have to be willing to go with what God has organized and/or set up...if indeed that's what He does...that is, set up an organization by which His will can be known.

Ahhh! So one must conform to what God has organized FIRST, to be able to understand him. So how does one know what God has organized if one can't know his will until they are willing to go with what he supposedly "organized and/or set up"? What a circle jerk.

You can't polish a turd, but Mental is sure trying to.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Then if living by faith is the default here on earth, then we no longer have true free will. Without knowledge a true choice is impossible.

I don't want this point to get lost with all the 'mind blowing' static that ends up on these kinds of threads.

That's a very good point, if not something that undoes the 'line-upon-line, precept-upon-precept' garbage we were taught.

- D

[_Aero]

Why? Because without knowledge, free will can't truly exist. You can either have free will or faith, but not both at the same time. Which one do you want?

OK. Let's let this be the hypothetical truth for the sake of conversation and so that you can answer the following questions:

...Now to the real world that we live in. Where does this complete and unadulterated knowledge exist? Location? Method of retrieval? If you can tell us, I think there may be a LONG line at the
kiosk.

Who says that complete and unadulterated knowledge does exist? I don't know that it does. Yet. I would say that the path to getting that knowledge is not through religion though. If there is ever going to be complete and unadulterated knowledge, it is going to come through the scientific method. It certainly isn't coming through the burning of the bosom.

Complete knowledge and free will to boot. What a deal! Where do we sign up?

Certainly not in the local LDS baptismal font.

[_grindael]

I won't argue that there is the very real possibility that so called spiritual experiences/feelings can be self induced and mistaken for what may be the 'real deal'. Actually, I think this happens quite often. And I think confirmation bias can be involved in a 'false positive', so to speak.

This is the ONLY possibility, because you said you can't explain your so called "spiritual experiences". (The supposed "real" ones). You actually have no idea which is which, just an arbitrary guess. This is the way that your God communicates? How silly. This means that Mormon "prophets" are no different. So what's the point? There isn't one.

Mormonism's claim that their "prophets" speak with God is simply arbitrary hit and miss dictated by the individual. Got it. Where's a good peepstone when you need one?

[_mentalgymnast]

Where we have got to now seems to be that spiritual experiences can only be differentiated as such if one already believes in God and that he communicates via spiritual experiences.

IHAQ, you're bringing up some good points. Thanks.

I don't know that I have said that spiritual experiences...such as the one I've described in my case...were dependent necessarily on a belief in God. Yes, there may have been a hope...at the time...but there were most definitely doubts/questions that I had in regards to His existence and/or involvement in the world that we/I live in. The belief/hope that I've eventually developed in a personal creator/God came after the burning in the bosom experience. Like I said, in my case it might be that I needed the 'hammer method' in order to bring me to a place that...within the context of my other life experiences...might bring me to a place that I could choose to believe in a God that up to that time I was no looking at as being likely.

Think of the arguments against God. They were all part and parcel of what was going on in my 'mental space'.

So in essence what I'm saying is that for me the spiritual experience, for me, didn't align with a previously held belief...or at least strong belief of any sort...in God. After the experience I then was forced to look at #1, what the heck is going on here...and #2, like you said, what am I to do with this?

As time went on, I did the research and came away believing in the God of Genesis in which we are told that we are created in the image of God. Mormonism and the restoration came later.

And, truth be told, that's still a work in process. Man, it would be nice to have that certain knowledge...but alas, I live by faith. But I do think that the CoJCofLDS...and I've said this before...rises to the top contender in the marketplace of ideas/systems that...for me...seems to make sense in regards to the studies that I've done along the way dealing with, well, all kinds of stuff.

I think living by faith has actually made me stronger in certain respects. Especially in the area of choice. I choose what to believe without the 'silver spoon'.

Regards,
MG

[_grindael]

You're reading it as straightforward normative wisdom.

This whole thread is filled with irony read as straightforward wisdom. There is nothing wise about anything the Mormons have said here. They are circle jerking themselves and everyone else. And putting that forth as normative wisdom.

It's really quite... ironic.

[_grindael]

But I do think that the CoJCofLDS...and I've said this before...rises to the top contender in the marketplace of ideas/systems that...for me...seems to make sense in regards to the studies that I've done along the way dealing with, well, all kinds of stuff.

Some people make stuff up. Even here on a board like this. Go figure. ... I guess I should know better.

[_mentalgymnast]

Hey all,

I've spent a LOT of time on this thread today. I'm not running off. I just need to take a break. Like lunch, working out, and real life stuff. It's a nice day outside.

I'll check back later to see where the conversation/discussion has gone.

Thanks,
MG

[_grindael]

...the "hammer method"...

Now, indescribable "spiritual experiences" have methods... will the ridiculousness never cease?

[_grindael]

real life stuff

So you consider this not a part of real life? Good to know. I had a "feeling" that all the claimed spiritual experiences were simply a fantasy.