Converts to Limnor's Book of Mormon Origins?

[Gadianton]

A second question, Limnor, concerning Emma's account. What are the possibilities here?

One is that it never happened at all; false memory or fabrication.
But I tend to think it was real. It's consistent with storing the plates in the bean barrel for the trip. But what was actually stored there?

Probably a family Bible or random book. So the question is, wouldn't folks get curious and uncover the book? No, because if you feel under the cloth that it's a book, you already know it's a book. But you tell yourself it's plates anyway, and so you know not to ruin the story by looking.

Isn't it possible to have a defense ready in case somebody looks? The book hides it true nature as an ordinary book if those should look without the proper faith?

And then later, the book must have gone back on the shelves and lived as a myth in the forest for Martin Harris to find.

There is a lot of tension in these accounts. Imagine that this whole time the "plates" -- whatever they were -- were a real physical something floating around the Hale residence that got picked up to clean under as if a no-big-deal everyday thing. Everyone in that house is used to living with the plates hiding out under a cloth and everyone knows where they are. Martin Harris wants to see the plates. This requires him to embark of a journey of imagination and spiritual eyes. But had Harris spent any time at all with anybody connected with that household, he would have known the plates were hanging out there under a cloth and surely he would have been more specific or even sneaky in his requests, to get to the table with cloth and uncover them himself. Surely, if he was aware that the plates were sitting on a table under a cloth that other family members saw every day, he wouldn't have gone along with the whole DMT psycho trip where Moroni shows them to people.

[Marcus]

A second question, Limnor, concerning Emma's account. What are the possibilities here?

One is that it never happened at all; false memory or fabrication.
But I tend to think it was real. It's consistent with storing the plates in the bean barrel for the trip. But what was actually stored there?

Probably a family Bible or random book. So the question is, wouldn't folks get curious and uncover the book? No, because if you feel under the cloth that it's a book, you already know it's a book. But you tell yourself it's plates anyway, and so you know not to ruin the story by looking.

Isn't it possible to have a defense ready in case somebody looks? The book hides it true nature as an ordinary book if those should look without the proper faith? ...

If I recall correctly, grindael documented an experience where exactly this happened--someone looked, and it wasn't plates. I think Smith managed to laugh it off, but it sounded like a practice run. I'll see f I can find his recounting of the event.

Eta: I think it was this:

There’s evidence that Joseph was caught out trying to trick someone into believing he had plates, but it was just a greenish brick?

The version of the story I saw came from this passage in a 19th-century book, courtesy of one of Grindael's long posts.

[Marcus]

From another discussion, thanks to Dan Vogel's research, with the quote easier to read than the pages linked above:

A little more about this story, with a hat tip to Vogel, whose quote of Mormon historian Anderson about the original author of the story is included:

Courage to View the Gold Plates
Posted on July 28, 2011 by Sharon Lindbloom

Pomeroy Tucker was a contemporary of Joseph Smith. Living in Palmyra, New York, he knew the Smith family, counted Martin Harris among his friends, and was actively engaged in the 1830 printing process of the Book of Mormon.

In 1867 Pomeroy Tucker published a book about Mormonism titled, “Origin, rise, and progress of Mormonism: Biography of its founders and history of its church.” The book is highly critical of Joseph Smith and the religion he founded, and is itself criticized for Mr. Tucker’s lack of careful and new research. However, according to Mormon historian Richard L. Anderson, “Tucker does relate much valuable information concerning the period of the publication of the Book of Mormon…Most of Tucker’s unattributed particulars of the Smiths’ early Palmyra life are probably based on his observation” (quoted in Dan Vogel, Early Mormon Documents, 3:87).

Pomeroy Tucker’s book relates an unusual story concerning the gold plates that purportedly contained the text for the Book of Mormon. What follows is from “Origin, rise, and progress of Mormonism,” pages 30-33.

“[Joseph] Smith told a frightful story of the display of celestial pyrotechnics on the exposure to his view of the sacred book—the angel who had led him to the discovery again appearing as his guide and protector, and confronting ten thousand devils gathered there, with their menacing sulphureous flame and smoke, to deter him from his purpose! This story was repeated and magnified by the believers, and no doubt aided the experiment upon superstitious minds which eventuated so successfully.

“Mr. Willard Chase, a carpenter and joiner, was called upon by Smith and requested to make a strong chest in which to keep the golden book under lock and key, in order to prevent the awful calamity that would follow against the person other than himself who should behold it with his natural eyes. He could not pay a shilling for the work, and therefore proposed to make Mr. Chase a sharer in the profits ultimately anticipated in some manner not definitely stated; but the proposition was rejected—the work was refused on the terms offered. It was understood, however, that the custodian of the precious treasure afterward in some way procured a chest for his purpose, which, with its sacred deposit, was kept in a dark garret of his father’s house, where the translations were subsequently made, as will be explained.

“An anecdote touching this subject used to be related by William T. Hussey and Azel Vandruver. They were notorious wags [jokers], and were intimately acquainted with Smith. They called as his friends at his residence, and strongly importuned him for an inspection of the ‘golden book,’ offering to take upon themselves the risk of the death-penalty denounced. Of course, the request could not be complied with; but they were permitted to go to the chest with its owner, and see where the thing was, and observe its shape and size, concealed under a piece of thick canvas. Smith, with his accustomed solemnity of demeanor, positively persisting in his refusal to uncover it, Hussey became impetuous, and (suiting his action to his word) ejaculated, ‘Egad! I’ll see the critter, live or die!’ And stripping off the cover, a large tile-brick was exhibited. But Smith’s fertile imagination was equal to the emergency. He claimed that his friends had been sold by a trick of his; and ‘treating’ with the customary whiskey hospitalities, the affair ended in good-nature.”

https://blog.mrm.org/2011/07/courage-to ... ld-plates/

[Interesting opinion about Pomeroy by Mormon historian Anderson is bolded by me.]

[Limnor]

I have wondered where "gold plates" came from. As a pirates treasure, it makes a little bit of sense, but it's not a stereotypical example of a pirates treasure. On the other hand, the Book of Mormon is quite at home with pseudo Bible literature, but where are "plates" in those stories? So I think it's a very interesting idea.

Tell me where I'm going wrong there: The Book of Mormon started with Mosiah through Moroni and then starts back at Nephi. My naïve expectations of the theory would be the discussion of "records" in the abstract in Mosiah, perhaps assumed to be parchment, which then become plates in Nephi. But plates of Nephi and brass plates are both mentioned in Alma. Is this because somebody went back and changed it, or did the evolution complete itself between Mosiah and Alma?

You’ve made a sharp observation, Dean, as I’ve grown accustomed to and appreciate. I’ll submit the “pirates” explanation is a much kinder take than I’m offering.

The only thing I’d offer as a change is the book begins even earlier—with the Brother of Jared—and then moves through Zeniff before the Mosiah material.

Within the Mosiah section, I see the language of “records” shifting toward “plates.”

This is where the shift happens.

Mosiah 25:5–7 reads:

Mosiah 25 5 And it came to pass that Mosiah did read, and caused to be read, the records of Zeniff to his people; yea, he read the records of the people of Zeniff, from the time they left the land of Zarahemla until they returned again.

6 And he also read the account of Alma and his brethren, and all their afflictions, from the time they left the land of Zarahemla until the time they returned again.

7 And now, when Mosiah had made an end of reading the records, his people who tarried in the land were struck with wonder and amazement.

The doubling of “read” and “records” repeats Mosiah 8:5–6, where Ammon describes the same records being discovered and translated.

Mosiah 8:5 And it came to pass that he caused that the plates which contained the record of his people from the time that they left the land of Zarahemla, should be brought before Ammon, that he might read them.

6 Now, as soon as Ammon had read the record, the king inquired of him to know if he could interpret languages, and Ammon told him that he could not.

This repetition reads as an editorial moment—the compiler is bridging two narrative traditions: the earlier, story-level “records of Zeniff” and the later, materialized “plates” paradigm.

That duplication looks like the redactional seam where the concept of record-as-story gave way to record-as-artifact.

By Alma 37:3–5, Alma calls them explicitly “these plates of brass” and “these plates of Nephi,” showing the idea has hardened into metallic permanence (to turn a phrase).

The presence of both “plates of Nephi” and “brass plates” in Alma suggests that the evolution had already completed itself by that point.

When the text was later expanded backward to include Nephi, that framework was simply projected retroactively, giving the illusion that the whole record had always been metallic.

In my expanded universe, the error of Mosiah I ( formerly Benjamin) results in a reflection of the usurpation by Joseph, and Mosiah II being Rigdon, and marks more than a textual glitch; it betrays a moment of authorship transfer.

In literal terms, the error reflects an editorial splice after the “loss” of earlier material.

[Limnor]

MG, in the interview you drew this quote from, Emma Hale proves herself to be hopelessly unreliable. In it, she repeatedly and shamelessly lies through her teeth. You already knew this, but you chose to use this source anyway. Why is that?

I’m interested in a response to this as well.

[Limnor]

expectations of the theory would be the discussion of "records" in the abstract in Mosiah, perhaps assumed to be parchment, which then become plates in Nephi.

I suppose I should provide more context about my thesis.

I see the “records as parchment” through the lens of a modified Spalding/Rigdon theory.

Rigdon provided a base document—the modified Spalding book—but included a prophecy identifying him as the “coming seer.”

The Smiths were supposed to “find” this “record” and return it to Rigdon, but Joseph usurped him—by “losing” the 116 pages—and replaced what Rigdon wrote with his own story, complete with the prophecy that Joseph was the coming seer.

This is all captured in the book, as I read it.

Scare quotes optional.

[Limnor]

A second question, Limnor, concerning Emma's account. What are the possibilities here?

One is that it never happened at all; false memory or fabrication.
But I tend to think it was real. It's consistent with storing the plates in the bean barrel for the trip. But what was actually stored there?

Probably a family Bible or random book. So the question is, wouldn't folks get curious and uncover the book? No, because if you feel under the cloth that it's a book, you already know it's a book. But you tell yourself it's plates anyway, and so you know not to ruin the story by looking.

Isn't it possible to have a defense ready in case somebody looks? The book hides it true nature as an ordinary book if those should look without the proper faith?

And then later, the book must have gone back on the shelves and lived as a myth in the forest for Martin Harris to find.

There is a lot of tension in these accounts. Imagine that this whole time the "plates" -- whatever they were -- were a real physical something floating around the Hale residence that got picked up to clean under as if a no-big-deal everyday thing. Everyone in that house is used to living with the plates hiding out under a cloth and everyone knows where they are. Martin Harris wants to see the plates. This requires him to embark of a journey of imagination and spiritual eyes. But had Harris spent any time at all with anybody connected with that household, he would have known the plates were hanging out there under a cloth and surely he would have been more specific or even sneaky in his requests, to get to the table with cloth and uncover them himself. Surely, if he was aware that the plates were sitting on a table under a cloth that other family members saw every day, he wouldn't have gone along with the whole DMT psycho trip where Moroni shows them to people.

That’s a really perceptive way to look at it, Dean. The tension you mention is interesting.

The view I’ll offer also touches on what marcus has offered.

If we take Emma’s account at face value, what she describes isn’t some magical disappearance and reappearance of metal plates, but a familiar household object treated with extraordinary caution.

Whether it was an actual book, a set of pages, or a decoy wrapped in a cloth, the “meaning” of the object was important to Emma. From the idea of faith that Alma expresses, she may have “wanted” to believe enough to make it true.

The story almost “needs” an everyday book or bundle to stand in for the holy plates. Faith can exist so long as it’s not exposed.

From that perspective, not looking becomes the act of faith itself.

So yes, the bean-barrel, the cloth, the kitchen table, all those domestic things served real stage props necessary to carry the story into reality.

Everyone knew where the plates were, yet what they were depended entirely on how one looked, or refused to look.

That makes the “household plates” not a contradiction but the embodiment of Emma’s logic: she wanted to believe, and the secret allowed ordinary objects—and ordinary people—a connection to the divine.

I’m empathetic towards Emma and other LDS believers. I’ve described it as a trap before, one self made.

[Limnor]

An alternate explanation, for consideration. Less sympathic, more delusion.

I’ve considered how Emma could have been reflected in the book, given that she acted as a scribe for a time.

From that view, the unnamed queen in Alma 19 could be read as the “encoding” of Emma into the book.

The queen is the believing partner who sustains faith in a hidden revelation that others doubt.

Her insistence that the king “is not dead, but sleepeth in God” mirrors Emma’s defense of Joseph’s divine calling when others saw delusion.

As she summons Ammon, the interpreter (Joseph) and later shares the same visionary trance, the queen becomes a co-participant in the miracle, just as Emma moved from observer to scribe and believer in the translation.

[Gadianton]

thanks for the responses, I'll need to think about them more. One correction, I had my timeline wrong. Isaac Hale wouldn't have the plates in his home if Joseph wouldn't let him see them, so Joseph hid them in the woods, they were already in the woods by the time Martin Harris was around.

Marcus, was that the tile brick that got exposed?

[Marcus]

thanks for the responses, I'll need to think about them more. One correction, I had my timeline wrong. Isaac Hale wouldn't have the plates in his home if Joseph wouldn't let him see them, so Joseph hid them in the woods, they were already in the woods by the time Martin Harris was around.

Marcus, was that the tile brick that got exposed?

I don't know--this is when we need grindael's encyclopedic knowledge. It was my casual understanding that the event took place long before any official Mormon history, as more of a practice event, kind of like Smith's casual use of the stone he appropriated from a neighbor, long before it became an lds artifact.