Why is it that you’re here, MG?

[Res Ipsa]

I'm not a believer, and I talk about why "no God" might be true from time to time. Obviously, I don't speak for anyone other than myself, but I don't see anything wrong with describing a different portrayal of God that might be true.

That is an interesting insight that I hadn’t considered. Maybe describing different portrayals of God is an acknowledgment of uncertainty?

Sounds right to me.

[Limnor]

Saying, "From my perspective your pile of evidence does not make a heap," or, "My prior is so strong that your evidence hardly budges my needle," is only a fancy-sounding way of saying, "BLAH-BLAH-BLAH I CAN'T HEAR YOU BECAUSE MY EARS ARE COVERED!"

Same.

[MG 2.0]

Saying, "From my perspective your pile of evidence does not make a heap," or, "My prior is so strong that your evidence hardly budges my needle," is only a fancy-sounding way of saying, "BLAH-BLAH-BLAH I CAN'T HEAR YOU BECAUSE MY EARS ARE COVERED!"

Same.

I appreciate your input Limnor. Even more, I'd like to have Physics Guy respond to my questions on the page before this one.

I realize that my questions might fall into the "blah, blah, blah" category for you...but I'm just asking that he humor me in my weakness/ignorance.

Epistemology does matter, right?

Regards,
MG

[Limnor]

Same.

I appreciate your input Limnor. Even more, I'd like to have Physics Guy respond to my questions on the page before this one.

I realize that my questions might fall into the "blah, blah, blah" category for you...but I'm just asking that he humor me in my weakness/ignorance.

Epistemology does matter, right?

Regards,
MG

Sure, epistemology definitely matters. You seems satisfied with whatever works for you, but most people ask what would persuade someone on the outside.

[Everybody Wang Chung]

[Gadianton]

I dunno. From my decades of participation in a range of mainstream Christian denominations and groups, I'd say that the whole "elect" thing is an isolated minority view. It's a Reformed thing (Calvinist), and I don't ever recall anyone else ever using similar words or intending similar ideas. I think the great majority of Christians believe pretty simply in free will, and take the "eleventh hour" parable to mean that anyone at all can repent and be saved right up to their last breath—maybe even beyond that point.

It seemed like the majority view on radio and television broadcasts to me, maybe I just tuned in at the wrong time or reformed types are more likely to do TV. I've actually never heard a competing explanation. I'm sure I can find one if I look, of course. But the "eleventh hour" doesn't help your case as that's the perfect scenario since the person is going to die, he can't prove anybody wrong.

Being my normal cynical self here for a moment. The types who get sucked into the big rallies, especially with rock bands and charismatic gifts on display, and go to the stage to get saved are very likely to be broken individuals who aren't making it in life. One wouldn't expect a lot of consistency. If a bad dude gets saved on stage and then a few days later shows up in a public place with gun and reads Paul aloud saying, "shall we sin that grace may abound?" and then responds, "hell yes!" and unloads his gun on the crowd, we'll see how many true believers in eternal security with no stipulations there are.

Mormons and Christians both basically believe you've got to be good, whether that's to avoid breaking a "saved while" loop or complete a "for i to saved" loop, it amounts to the same thing. Mormons have all kinds of outs for lackluster performance, a favorite being there's still a chance in the next life.

[huckelberry]

There might be a bit of everybody in this comparison.

[Gadianton]

Gadianton, faith works is far from what first comes to mind comparing Mormon to more traditional views. The Trinity is more obvious a difference. From the starting idea of God as exalted human the trinity is illogical and contradictory as Mormons are quick to see. If God is infinite eternal omnipresent the Trinity is mysterious in ways but not contradictory.

I agree that Trinity is technically more important in terms of creeds since, well, it pretty much is the creed, but first of all, I don't think many Christians have any clue about the "trinity" such that it that shapes their relation to God in a way that's meaningfully different from a Mormon. I'd love to hear my right-wing friend or any of his fellow Christians I interact with on my walks explain the trinity to me. I imagine I'd be awarding a few F-s.

Mainly, I'd say consider Morley's insights the other day when he explained the many sources of our construction as people. From school to TV and movies, I have a hard time believing a Mormon kid and a Christian kid of the same socio-economic class really view God that differently. I'll bet the typical Christian imagines the face of a man when thinking about the Father when they pray. Even Chick tracts represent the Father as a guy on a throne although without a face. You can't really imagine the cosmos as that would be pantheism. So what ya' going to think about?

On the other hand, even though Mormons believe the Holy Ghost is technically just another person, I never imagined "him" this way, I always imagined a "wind" like phenomena as the scriptures describe.

[Limnor]

Outside of Reformed theology, most Christians think along the lines of “free will” and the possibility of repentance. One of the inside jokes is calling them “the frozen chosen,” even among themselves.

[malkie]

I dunno. From my decades of participation in a range of mainstream Christian denominations and groups, I'd say that the whole "elect" thing is an isolated minority view. It's a Reformed thing (Calvinist), and I don't ever recall anyone else ever using similar words or intending similar ideas. I think the great majority of Christians believe pretty simply in free will, and take the "eleventh hour" parable to mean that anyone at all can repent and be saved right up to their last breath—maybe even beyond that point.

It seemed like the majority view on radio and television broadcasts to me, maybe I just tuned in at the wrong time or reformed types are more likely to do TV. I've actually never heard a competing explanation. I'm sure I can find one if I look, of course. But the "eleventh hour" doesn't help your case as that's the perfect scenario since the person is going to die, he can't prove anybody wrong.

Being my normal cynical self here for a moment. The types who get sucked into the big rallies, especially with rock bands and charismatic gifts on display, and go to the stage to get saved are very likely to be broken individuals who aren't making it in life. One wouldn't expect a lot of consistency. If a bad dude gets saved on stage and then a few days later shows up in a public place with gun and reads Paul aloud saying, "shall we sin that grace may abound?" and then responds, "hell yes!" and unloads his gun on the crowd, we'll see how many true believers in eternal security with no stipulations there are.

Mormons and Christians both basically believe you've got to be good, whether that's to avoid breaking a "saved while" loop or complete a "for i to saved" loop, it amounts to the same thing. Mormons have all kinds of outs for lackluster performance, a favorite being there's still a chance in the next life.

Mormons may be able to obtain the additional 'get out of jail free" card called the Second Anointing, or Calling & Election Made Sure. If you can be good enough, and catch the eye of the right person(s), you can

receive the more sure word of prophecy, which means that the Lord seals [your] exaltation upon [you] while [you] are yet in this life. ... [Your] exaltation is assured.

This allows you to do all sorts of nasty things, with only a few exceptions, and not have to depend on forgiveness in the next life: it's guaranteed!