anti-christ discussion, from middle p. 3 to end.

[huckelberry]

A push to change things of any imporatance creates resistance and division. It seems to me that the only way not to be a division creator is to accept every thing in the world just as it. Such a thought might propose, do not say the world is fallen,it is exactly as it should be and only divisive people would wish to change things. There is a path saying to be good you must bow your head and keep your mouth shut. Jesus did not follow that path.

Consider people in 1853 in the the US who thought that slavery should end. They had a horrible divisive idea which would set brother against brother children against parents. It was a divisive idea which initiated thousands of deaths. It created division which troubles our country today over 150 years later.

Not all divisions are as damaging as this of course. That division in Jesus family was healed, well it never went beyond the family trying to stop Jesus for a while.

Jesus lived in a time and place of deep divisions which were headed towards a war which would destroy the Jewish nation. Jesus warned his followers that he was not going to make the coming storm disappear. They needed warning that their road was going to have difficulties.

[Jersey Girl]

Hey stem, I just now happened to check back through this thread and see that you've commented in reply! You have given me a mountain to climb and I will tell you why. Starting with your first verse of scripture in Luke, I am going to see if I can go back into the Greek translation and see what I can come up with.

I'm actually doing this for me and not you, but still...I'll give it a go and this is why. I know from experience particularly with the KJV in discussion, that the KJV (which I and LDS have in common) is not always translated correctly. I know we all accept that but it does in some cases at least, change the meaning of scripture from what we think we know it means.

Case in point, both Old Testament and New Testament verses that we use to condemn homosexuality when yanked out of context and without examining the original language (as best as we're able, I mean most of us are amateurs) and without consideration to the cultural context in which they were written, lead me to believe that we don't always know what the heck we're reading and how we interpret it. Call it a little side line of mine, but I find it interesting.

But I will say that just off the top of my head that the hatred that is mentioned has more to do with first loyalty to Christ Jesus and less to do with actual hatred but I want to look at that in context and see if I can come up with the Greek translation to see if it makes any difference. Anyway, I was surprised that you didn't come up with a certain verse that I thought you would!

I shall return.

And where is Aristotle when you need him? He is SO good at this but you'll have to settle for a rank amateur like me! Sorry!

I'm now wondering if I should offer my own interpretation attempts before climbing the mountain? We'll see...

[Jersey Girl]

Saving this in case I decide to go forward with it using my own interpretation and go at it "cold" so to speak, using no outside influences except the words that we read here.

Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but rather division
Luke 12

Attempting to apply this thinking in our world seems rather impossible and is nothing short of a contradiction of what we naturally strive for and so it makes sense people, as they mature and come to their sense, treat these types of passages as foolish or ignorable, assuming, as it were, they really mean something special and helpful rather than divisive. But, the glaring ugliness of them could explain the atrocities that Jesus seems to have inspired over the course of history.

Of course this doesn't represent the sum of his teachings. Not in the least. But I don't see how we make up for this type of stuff with sacrifice that doesn't make sense or work.

Sorry I mentioned that Jesus teaches how he and his father have a special desire to ignore many believers as part of this. He mentions this in a few ways, in a couple of different contexts...the most prominent and explicit it seems to me is found in the sermon on the Mount:

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.