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_Zakuska
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Post by _Zakuska »

According to beasties source... pg 263 the Horse remains that the Haits found on the surface or possibly Chamber 3 where... Equus Asirus.

Hmmm... This is getting intresting...

Image

True wild asses are found only in northern Africa and the Arabian peninsula, but domesticated and feral donkeys can now be found in all parts of the world. The native range extends from Morocco to Somalia and Mesopotamia to Oman. (Nowak, 1997; The American Donkey and Mule Society, 1998)


http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/s ... sinus.html

Doesn't the Book of Mormon talk about Asses from Mesapatomia and Oman through which Lehi and the Jaredites Traveled?

Of course I know alot of Fryers who rode Donkeys too.

We need a Carbon Date!
Last edited by Guest on Fri Jan 18, 2008 2:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

The equus axinus was introduced by the Spaniards. I found some more quotes that I'm putting together, by the way.

The problem with the picture you're painting beastie... is it forgets all about the horse remains found on the surface down to 10cm. By Mercer and Hatt... which even according to you where "Modern Horse"... nor the "Misclassified dubiously identified "Ursus Bones". Even the Farms paper says this... that Mercer Classified them as Equus Equus. According to Farms they looked more like Equus ocidentalis and where on the surface down to about 10cm. And down to level 5. They even foot note that so you can verify it. ;)


Zak,

I have not been able to verify that the modern horse was found down to level 5. The only source for this claim is Sorenson's attribution to Schmidt. I have found other, pertinent, references to Schmidt, but none that make this claim. I have already offered citations from the Ice Age text that directly contradict this assertion, but that goes right over your head. Sorenson said it, so that's scripture to you, or something, despite his horrible history with sources.

We have "extinct Fuana" In the Plestacene age sediments. (VII - XVI) Carbon dating some where in this layer (VII) which was 2 meters thik has a peace of Charcoal at 1800BC so any remians found above this... which Mercer Did find and you admited where "Modern Horse" have to be dated from then. So again we are talking about who brought the horses that where on the surface to America? Was it the Spanish, or was it some other sea fairing bunch ? OR... where they here all along... surving the ice age?Your Job is to prove that as RAY titled his essay "Pre-Columbian horse in the Yucatan" was not viable from this data. Were the surface horses misclassified by Mercer as Equus Equus as Farms asserts? (Remember the dubiously classified Ursus bones in these layers?) ;)


Remember also we arnt talking about extinct Fuana in Layer 5 and below... we are talking about the "modern horse" remains that where found above Layer 5 by Mercer. In the Schmidt summary they say nothing about animal remains animal remains in the first 5 layers. Again its your Job to prove that those remains got here after the Spanish. So you must show where 1842AD is in the dirty. Pottery which is in Layers 1-5 dates to 900-400BC. Clearly Book of Mormon Times... so any horse remains mixed around here in these 5 layers would be after 1800BC. You need to look at all the digs ands see where these "Modern Horse" remains appear in the picture.


Zak, I am almost at the end of my rope with you. You take the phrase "pre-columbian horse" and pretend that means that the author is asserting the existence of a post-extinction, pre-conquest horse. That's why I specifically made you admit that, whether or not you agree with them, scientists categorically accept that there was no horse in the New World during the specified Book of Mormon time period, and when they use the term "modern" they mean post-conquest, and when they use the term "pre-columbian", they mean Pleistocene.

You do remember the years that Mercer and Hatt were excavating, don't you? Mercer - 1896 and Hatt - 1953. Studies in these caves has continued and further research, with improved techniques, have been performed since those dates. I have repeatedly shared those results with you, but you stick your fingers in your ears and say LALALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU.

YOUR job is to show from some source other than Sorenson's summary of Schmidt that horse remains were found in Level V. Every single reference I've read says they were at the bottom of level VII.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

by the way, how did the jaredites transport horses in a ship "tight like unto a dish" that would flip around in the water?
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_skippy the dead
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Post by _skippy the dead »

And Zak, why don't you invite others from MAD to join in this thread, rather than present your one-sided posts, sans Beastie's thoughtful and compelling rebuttals, on the MAD board with declarations of victory? LALALALALALALALA indeed.
I may be going to hell in a bucket, babe / But at least I'm enjoying the ride.
-Grateful Dead (lyrics by John Perry Barlow)
_Zakuska
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Post by _Zakuska »

Hun... you keep putting your fingers in your ears and saying LA LA LA to me as well..

Your source says "extinct fuana" are found in the BOTTOM of Layer 5

"Modern Horses" are not extinct now are they ;)

So why would they be with all those dead extinct animals in layer 5. We are talking about the horses Mercer and Hait Found on the surface and possibly in the pits in Chamber 3 he dug. We are talking about (Layers 2-5) We need more information. (ie The strata of the site to know from where each horse speciman came from... or a Carbon Date on the bones would do too.

See that's the information that is missing which you keep saying Sorenson is the only source for. Sorenson isn't... It could possibly come from Hait and Mercer and they are in English. But then wee need to know what Schmidt found as well. Because he found the carbon date. When Sorenson says horse remains where found in the upper levels He's not necesarrily summarizing Schmidt hes summarizing all the information that they all found. He even mentions the minerized teeth a layer 2.
Last edited by Guest on Fri Jan 18, 2008 2:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

No, Zak, hatt and mercer did NOT claim the modern horse remains went down to level 5 in the cave. The only source I can find that makes an assertion like that is Sorenson's interpretation of Schmidt. It is not verified by later archaeologists, if, indeed, that's what Schmidt claimed.

You have to remember what I earlier cited for you - it is often confusing for archaeologists to figure out dating and strata in caves in the first place. That is likely why the earlier archaeologists' statements contradict the more recent studies.

But, to tell the truth, when we're at the point where you are willing to claim that evidence of MODERN HORSES or donkeys that we KNOW the Spaniards brought over constitutes evidence for the Book of Mormon, I'm about ready to throw in the towel with you.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Zakuska
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Posts: 215
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2007 7:58 am

Post by _Zakuska »

Have you looked at any Strata for the digs? You know those pictures of cross setions of the earth with little white flags to show you where things where found? Or sometimes they are diagrams. From the information you have presented you've only read summaries of everything.

Im waiting for Chris to bring the scans of the books.

Can you Prove that a Donkey whos home range is Mesapatomia and who the Jaredites coming from the Tower of Babel went specifically to the Valley of Nimrod to pick up animals from to bring with them, In other words, Prove to us that that Donkey speaks spainish, Instead of Reformed Edyptian!

You keep forgetiing that the Jaredites by most calculation where in the "Modern Era" so their animals would have been "Modern", (ie Modern Catte., Horses etc.)
Last edited by Guest on Fri Jan 18, 2008 2:20 am, edited 6 times in total.
_krose
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Post by _krose »

beastie wrote:by the way, how did the jaredites transport horses in a ship "tight like unto a dish" that would flip around in the water?

Horsey hammocks?

Beastie, you have the patience of Gandhi.
_Zakuska
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Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2007 7:58 am

Post by _Zakuska »

krose wrote:
beastie wrote:by the way, how did the jaredites transport horses in a ship "tight like unto a dish" that would flip around in the water?

Horsey hammocks?

Beastie, you have the patience of Gandhi.


She's forgetting about the 8th ship.
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

Have you looked at any Strata for the digs? You know those pictures of cross setions of the earth with little white flags to show you where things where found? Or sometimes they are diagrams. From the information you have presented you've only read summaries of everything.

I'm waiting for Chris to bring the scans of the books.

Can you Prove that a Donkey who's home range is Mesapatomia and who the Jaredites coming from the Tower of Babel went specifically to the Valley of Nimrod to pick up animals from to bring with them, In other words, Prove to us that that Donkey speaks spainish, Instead of Reformed Edyptian!

You keep forgetiing that the Jaredites by most calculation where in the "Modern Era" so their animals would have been "Modern", (ie Modern Catte., Horses etc.)


This is insane. With this new theory of yours, unless each and every horse bone discovered is carbon dated, you get to consider them evidence supporting the Book of Mormon.

Never mind that nothing in the Book of Mormon insinuates that the Jaredites or Nephites brought HORSES with them, and the text explicitly states they FOUND horses in the New World upon arrival. And never mind that it defies logic and all sense to pretend they DID bring horses with them, particularly enough to survive the trip and reproduce. Do you realize how many horses DIED on the Spanish ships when THEY came over? And these were professionally prepared and sailed ships!!

You've gone into a realm where it's hard to take you seriously at all.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
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