Scratch, DCP, and the IRS

[_Daniel Peterson]

Why have I kept responding to Scartch? There are several reasons. Among them: I find pathologically uncivil behavior regarding politics and religion quite interesting. Seriously, I do. (I myself don't feel it at all difficult to get along with, to have lunch with, to joke with Dan Vogel or the director of Utah Missions, Inc., or Richard Abanes or Carl Mosser or Paul Owen or Michael Heiser or any number of other critics of Mormonism.) And, yes, I regard Scartch as pathological. So he intrigues me as a case study. Further, I do resent his persistent public effort to defame me, personally. I think it's cowardly to conduct such a campaign anonymously, but I would object even if he provided his name and address. I don't deserve such treatment. I'm a reasonably good person, sincere in what I do, and people who actually know me would, I'm confident, back me up in that claim. I have lots and lots of friends.

Have I given Scartch a status he doesn't merit? Plainly, yes. In the very small community represented by this board.

As to the nature of apologetics generally and of the FARMS Review in particular: Has it occasionally been pretty vigorous? No question about it. Yes. Is that to everybody's taste? Clearly not. Is everything in the FARMS Review so combative? No, not even close. Is FARMS or the FARMS Review, or am I, responsible for everything that goes on in "the mopologetic community"? No. Has the FARMS Review changed over time? Yes, it plainly has. Was it ever as vicious as some want to portray it? Absolutely not. Has it been way out of line by the standards of political commentary or even some scholarly discourse? No. Much worse things happen regularly in academic gatherings and much harsher things are published in academic journals and in journals of political opinion. We are, and always have been, quite gentlemanly by comparison, though we're definitely tougher than the Ensign and less bland than BYU Studies.



#########################################################################################################

[_LifeOnaPlate]

I've talked to people who said the same thing about Lou. None of them, however, had actually read anything Midgley had written. Plenty of well-poisoning, though. And in trashing Midgley people often wind up doing just what they accuse him of doing. It's odd to watch.

I do suspect that when members become "more informed", they will understand why Lou Midgley is the way he is. I understood where he was coming from. You can't expect anyone to take a severe beating and "turn the other cheek", in "real life" anyway. But, in the "ordinary member's mind", this isn't necessary. Fast and Testimony meeting has far more meaning to them. They don't understand why someone has to become "so nasty" to defend what they "know" by the "witness of the Spirit". That, in a nutshell, is why they don't understand apologetics. Why do we need to "prove" what we have had confirmed to us by the Spirit? To them it's all a waste of time trying to prove "obvious truth".

Again, I've never met such a Mormon who complains this way who has actually read Midgley.

[_Mister Scratch]

Hi there, Liz. May I ask: what is your problem with me and/or this thread?

My problem is that this question has been asked and answered at least 10 different times and ways, and you refuse to accept the answer because it doesn't suit you.

No, Liz---I've just been trying to get a straight answer. As you can see, Jason Bourne (whom Jersey Girl is citing as an expert on all of this) was totally confused/misinformed about the Board Chair fee.

If everything has been asked and answered, I'm sure you'll have no problem giving very clear and exact answers to the following questions:

1. What was the fluctuating "Board Chair" payment for?
2. To whom was the "Board Chair" payment made?
3. In what way(s) was the "Board Chair" payment on the 990 forms related to DCP's actual activities *as* "Board Chair"?
4. Why did the "Board Chair" payment change during each of the three years for which we have 990 forms?

If you, Jason, Harmony, Jersey, or anyone else who is sick of this topic can clearly answer all of those questions, then I will concede that they have been "asked and answered."

With DCP's final posting, I believe he has at last supplied the final piece (or almost the final piece) in the puzzle. However, I still think that he has equivocated on the issue of whether or not he gets paid to do apologetics, and I don't appreciate that dishonesty.

Give this one up, Scratch. You lost.

I'm not sure what you think I "lost". As I've noted, I simply wanted a straight answer, and as Beastie and others can tell you, DCP tends not to give straightforward answers.

[_harmony]

If everything has been asked and answered, I'm sure you'll have no problem giving very clear and exact answers to the following questions:

1. What was the fluctuating "Board Chair" payment for?

He answered that: administrative stuff. Detail crap that I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole.

2. To whom was the "Board Chair" payment made?

He answered that too.

3. In what way(s) was the "Board Chair" payment on the 990 forms related to DCP's actual activities *as* "Board Chair"?

He answered that too.

4. Why did the "Board Chair" payment change during each of the three years for which we have 990 forms?

He answered that too.

Just because you don't like his answers doesn't mean he didn't answer.

Whatever you think about his apologetics and getting paid for it has nothing to do with his duties as chair. His chair duties were administrative and as such, I don't think they paid him nearly enough.

[_Jason Bourne]

No, Liz---I've just been trying to get a straight answer. As you can see, Jason Bourne (whom Jersey Girl is citing as an expert on all of this) was totally confused/misinformed about the Board Chair fee.

If everything has been asked and answered, I'm sure you'll have no problem giving very clear and exact answers to the following questions:

1. What was the fluctuating "Board Chair" payment for?
2. To whom was the "Board Chair" payment made?
3. In what way(s) was the "Board Chair" payment on the 990 forms related to DCP's actual activities *as* "Board Chair"?
4. Why did the "Board Chair" payment change during each of the three years for which we have 990 forms?

If you, Jason, Harmony, Jersey, or anyone else who is sick of this topic can clearly answer all of those questions, then I will concede that they have been "asked and answered."

Ok. I will be fair. the only thing I have tried to clarify is how the 990 should be prepared and if it was prepared correctly given Dr Peterson's assertion that the $20,400 was not paid to him but rather to BYU. That is it. So again, assuming Dan is telling the truth and the $20,400 was paid to BYU the form 990 is absolutly correct based on the instructions and on the underlying tax law. My "expertise" on this topic is limited to this.

My personal judgement is Dan is telling the truth. I believe him.

As for the rest:

1: I do not know why the board chair payment fluctuated. Dan did say he got $3000 paid to him directly for that. He says as chair that did not entail apologetics.
2: Dan said the $20,400 was paid to BYU somewhere and somehow.
3: Dan said the $20,400 was for other activities basides board chair and $3000 was for board chair.
4: I have no idea. I can speculate that perhaps Dan's activities for FARMS including he METI work was more substantial in 1998 and all the payments got lumped together on the leldgers. But without reviewing the books I cannot tell.

[_Jersey Girl]

Scratch

No, Liz---I've just been trying to get a straight answer. As you can see, Jason Bourne (whom Jersey Girl is citing as an expert on all of this) was totally confused/misinformed about the Board Chair fee.

I have not cited Jason as an expert. I stated that he supplied you with detailed explanations that you have ignored.

Tell me how you think he was totally confused/misinformed about the Board Chair fee.

[_Mister Scratch]

If everything has been asked and answered, I'm sure you'll have no problem giving very clear and exact answers to the following questions:

1. What was the fluctuating "Board Chair" payment for?

He answered that: administrative stuff. Detail crap that I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole.

Which "administrative stuff"? Again, if this has all been "asked and answered", you and others should have no problem providing clear and straightforward answers.

2. To whom was the "Board Chair" payment made?

He answered that too.

And what's the answer?

3. In what way(s) was the "Board Chair" payment on the 990 forms related to DCP's actual activities *as* "Board Chair"?

He answered that too.

And what's the answer?

4. Why did the "Board Chair" payment change during each of the three years for which we have 990 forms?

He answered that too.

Just because you don't like his answers doesn't mean he didn't answer.

Where? What is the answer?

If you are so sick of this topic, then provide a clear, straightforward, easy-to-understand answer. That is all I'm asking. That is all I have been asking for all along. No one seems willing to do it.

[_Mister Scratch]

No, Liz---I've just been trying to get a straight answer. As you can see, Jason Bourne (whom Jersey Girl is citing as an expert on all of this) was totally confused/misinformed about the Board Chair fee.

If everything has been asked and answered, I'm sure you'll have no problem giving very clear and exact answers to the following questions:

1. What was the fluctuating "Board Chair" payment for?
2. To whom was the "Board Chair" payment made?
3. In what way(s) was the "Board Chair" payment on the 990 forms related to DCP's actual activities *as* "Board Chair"?
4. Why did the "Board Chair" payment change during each of the three years for which we have 990 forms?

If you, Jason, Harmony, Jersey, or anyone else who is sick of this topic can clearly answer all of those questions, then I will concede that they have been "asked and answered."

Ok. I will be fair.

Thanks, Jason.

As for the rest:

1: I do not know why the board chair payment fluctuated. Dan did say he got $3000 paid to him directly for that. He says as chair that did not entail apologetics.
2: Dan said the $20,400 was paid to BYU somewhere and somehow.
3: Dan said the $20,400 was for other activities basides board chair and $3000 was for board chair.
4: I have no idea. I can speculate that perhaps Dan's activities for FARMS including he METI work was more substantial in 1998 and all the payments got lumped together on the leldgers. But without reviewing the books I cannot tell.

Again, thank you, Jason. From your answers, I think it would be fair to say that we really don't know all that much, and that, in fact, "asked and answered" has not occurred.

[_harmony]

If you are so sick of this topic, then provide a clear, straightforward, easy-to-understand answer. That is all I'm asking. That is all I have been asking for all along. No one seems willing to do it.

Read pages 1-11 on this thread. Why should I spend my time doing your homework? Didn't your momma ever teach you that getting others to do your work was cheating?

[_Mister Scratch]

If you are so sick of this topic, then provide a clear, straightforward, easy-to-understand answer. That is all I'm asking. That is all I have been asking for all along. No one seems willing to do it.

Read pages 1-11 on this thread. Why should I spend my time doing your homework? Didn't your momma ever teach you that getting others to do your work was cheating?

I've read them more than once. I don't see the answers to the questions, and you won't provide them. DCP won't provide them. Jason has been very honest in admitting that he is totally clueless on at least a couple of the questions. Liz may very well be able to provide the answers, so I'll guess we'll have to wait and see.

Again: everyone is chanting "asked and answered!" If this is so, then it seems to me that it should be very easy to provide answers to the questions I posed.