Scott Lloyd whines about new dangers of unregulated truth.

[_ttribe]

Sure you're willing to play on it. You exempted abuse earlier - which is often also a subjective evaluation.

At the margin it may be subjective...by and large, however, it is not.

People and society make judgments all the time about what sort of behavior can and cannot be tolerated. Do you have a problem with that in general?

No...that's the democratic process when such a thing is performed collectively.

As I said, this is a decision people and society makes on a daily basis. What you call abuse another parent calls a good old fashioned whipping.

I think there are some pretty well-established lines here.

I think you're obviously very sensitive on this issue. In my teaching position, we're required to send home parental "contracts" in which we specify what actions the school will take to help the child, and ask the parent to agree to certain actions that the school deems will help the child as well. The parent checks options he/she chooses, but embedded in each option is the judgment that one parental behavior is preferable to another. One option IS limiting TV time. Another is taking the child to the library, or visiting the school, or reading to the child. Would you be PO'd over that, as well?

I'd be po'd if you told me you thought I was in the wrong somehow for the way I ran my household and your contract does sound unnecesarily intrusive. However, if you could make a case for a developmental issue specific to my child, I'd of course hear you out.

[_beastie]

by the way, if I stated, on a public board, that I hope that children whose parents taught them anti-mormon ideas would grow up to reject those ideas, would you find that offensive?

[_ttribe]

by the way, if I stated, on a public board, that I hope that children whose parents taught them anti-mormon ideas would grow up to reject those ideas, would you find that offensive?

I'd question why it is you think you have the right to tell those parents what they should teach their children.

Edited to add: Gotta run...it's 9 here and I'm still at the office. Time to go home.

[_beastie]

At the margin it may be subjective...by and large, however, it is not.

So you think that all parents who abuse their children fully recognize that they are abusive? If so, you are sadly mistaken.

No...that's the democratic process when such a thing is performed collectively.

I’m not just referring to the democratic process. You have made such a subjective judgment when you declare that statements such as “I hope that children whose parents teach them bigotry reject those teachings when they grow up” is inappropriate. You seem pretty comfortable with that judgment.

I think there are some pretty well-established lines here.

Many parents accused of abuse would beg to differ.

I'd be po'd if you told me you thought I was in the wrong somehow for the way I ran my household and your contract does sound unnecesarily intrusive. However, if you could make a case for a developmental issue specific to my child, I'd of course hear you out.

The state requires just such a contract. But your openness to “hearing me out” lets me know that you aren’t drawing the bright, hard line you insist.

Have you always been this sensitive on parenting issues? It never particularly bothered me when people offered me parenting advice, or even warned me about possible consequences of parental decisions. I figured parenting is a very hard job, and I know I’m not perfect. I think it must be stressful to be the type of parent who reacts to suggestions or comments with “HOW DARE YOU TELL ME HOW TO PARENT MY CHILD!!!” People usually mean well, and sometimes they’re actually right.


Yeah, it's time for me to quit, too.

[_EAllusion]

Criticizing someone's beliefs and hoping that their children do not follow them in their footsteps is not subordinating their rights as parents to anyone. Unless you're an elvish mage, I don't think your mere words is going to strip them of their capacity to teach their children all manner of undesirable things.

[_moksha]

I've known all types of people who taught their children things I thought were wrong...and guess what I never did, and would not presume to do - yep, object to how they raise their children.

You are to be commended for your tolerance and restraint.

I would murmur about a number of things like the Child Bride/Nambla stuff or the Hitler Youth. In the end, we have no authority to enforce our wishes.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Good Day Everyone,

So to summarize...

Mr. Ttribe finds it offensive that someone would wish Mormon children choose to be non-Mormon. On the flipside of that particular coin he sometimes finds it troubling that Mormons would wish *fill-in-the-blank* children choose to be non-*fill-in-the-blank*.

After ten pages of dialogue I strongly doubt Mr. Ttribe's sincerity in applying an equal standard of judgment to all who wish children of "x-y-z" parents leave their familial faith/ideology.

In toto, Mr. Ttribe has shown himself to be a hypocrite on this particular issue. I hope he reconsiders his worldview.

Very Respectfully,

Doctor CamNC4Me

[_Pokatator]

I have read the whole ten pages.....tt, plumber is entitled to his opinion same as you are. You both are saying basically the same thing but you are missing it. Plumber is more blunt and I don't agree with him on the burn in a fire comments but you and your church say the same as Plumber is saying. I prefer the blunt over the whining and obscuring and exaggerating.

The church has a missionary program that is saying the same as the Plumber but not as blunt. The motive of the church is to baptize and make a member out of every human on earth. To state otherwise is totally disingenuous. The church baptizes the dead for that same goal. They home teach for that goal. Everything they do is for that goal. They even go too far in my book. I have seen parenting and member behavior that takes that goal to the extreme by shunning adult people and children for not conforming. Children have been sent to gulags for not conforming. I seen unwed mothers disowned. I have seen members disfellowshipped and ex'd for not conforming. So tt I think you have your head in the sand.

tt you have exaggerated everything written on this thread. You compare a (passive) comment written on a message board to an (active) comment...

Again, do you go around the grocery store stopping people to tell them how you think they should parent?

and call them the same. You use "mind rape" and etc. All your comments are exaggerated. You need to go back and reread the OP and then think before you comment.

Plumber has an opinion, he is not actively parenting your kid or anyone's kid with an opinion. I have the same opinion, I hope that everyone not just kids seek the truth where ever they can find it and if they do and they are honest with themselves they will leave the church and seek another path. I hope it comes early and young not late in life like it did for me. tt, this hope of mine is no different than the church's hope and goal and I am not parenting you or your kid or anyone to hold that hope.

One big difference, the church is very active in achieving their goal and I am very passive.

[_Morrissey]

You don't think it's just a tad over the line to comment on your hopes that Scott's son rejects the teachings of his parents? What a class act you are.

Why the hell is this over the line? What is wrong with children rejecting the teachings of their parents?

Mormons rejoice when children of Baptists, Catholics, Muslims, Jews, etc. reject the teachings of their parents to join Mormonism. In fact, Mormons regularly pray that they do so. My nephew is on a mission, and his parents pray daily that he convinces people to reject the teachings of their parents.

Every child should be free to reject the teachings of his/her parents and choose his/her own path in life.

And for every child raised to believe in the superstitious beliefs and foolish traditions of their parents, I for one hope that they find the personal courage to reject these superstitious beliefs and foolish traditions.

If children were somehow morally or otherwise obligated to follow lock step in line with their parents' beliefs, what hope for any kind of social or other progress could we ever expect?

Dumb Mormon-centric objection.

[_ttribe]

Good Day Everyone,

So to summarize...

Mr. Ttribe finds it offensive that someone would wish Mormon children choose to be non-Mormon. On the flipside of that particular coin he sometimes finds it troubling that Mormons would wish *fill-in-the-blank* children choose to be non-*fill-in-the-blank*.

After ten pages of dialogue I strongly doubt Mr. Ttribe's sincerity in applying an equal standard of judgment to all who wish children of "x-y-z" parents leave their familial faith/ideology.

And what would be the basis for this doubt of yours?

In toto, Mr. Ttribe has shown himself to be a hypocrite on this particular issue. I hope he reconsiders his worldview.

How am I hypocrite? Did I not say I think this goes both ways? How many times do I have to say that?