Zub Zool oan and Abraham 1:2b?????3

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
Post Reply
_Trevor
_Emeritus
Posts: 7213
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 6:28 pm

Re: Zub Zool oan and Abraham 1:2b–3

Post by _Trevor »

Nomad wrote:By the way, mak, pay close attention to Metcalfe's customized definition of dittography:

A dittograph occurs when the eye of a scribe skips from a letter, letter grouping, word, or word grouping to another that is similar -- if not identical -- in appearance. Scholars consider this an _accidental_ scribal error that is facilitated by the _close proximity_ of the similarities.

I'll bet you don't recall the part about "close proximity" of homoioteleuton in your previous training in text criticism, huh?

Me neither.


Yeah, dipstick, there is no limitation, but Metcalfe might have been speaking to what is common. Maybe he overstated things, but you speak as though you are merely pretending to training in text criticism.
Last edited by Guest on Thu Aug 19, 2010 11:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“I was hooked from the start,” Snoop Dogg said. “We talked about the purpose of life, played Mousetrap, and ate brownies. The kids thought it was off the hook, for real.”
_Kevin Graham
_Emeritus
Posts: 13037
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:44 pm

Re: Zub Zool oan and Abraham 1:2b–3

Post by _Kevin Graham »

crowing about how Kevin whipped me when each and every one of you knows very well that he simply couldn't answer the question his theory demanded be answered.


This is where Mak's background betrays him. He thinks people here are just like the morons at MADB, when reality is much different. Trevor and I have a healthy respect for one another, and yet we have been known to disagree on some issues. I'm just as likely to disagree with EA, Beastie, Harmony and actually anyone who posts here regularly. But that is OK, because this is America and they have the right to be wrong (grin).

The fact that you think people will start bragging onb my behalf, is just funny. We don't do that here, and I personally don't believe I've completely destroyed your dittograph argument with my proposed scenarios. Again the evidence that undermines that argument is the evidence you, by your own admission, haven't "got around to yet."

You're like a child insisting the moon if made of cheese, because it looks just like it. And when someone mentions the findings of astronomy, you respond, "well I haven't got around to that information yet. But in the meantime, you have to agree the moon is made of cheese, otherwise I will leave this discussion and take my bulletproof reputation with me!"

Spare us Mak.
_Darth J
_Emeritus
Posts: 13392
Joined: Thu May 13, 2010 12:16 am

Re: Zub Zool oan and Abraham 1:2b–3

Post by _Darth J »

Kevin Graham wrote:
I remember when I was in grad school, when I thought I knew everything and was so much smarter than else

Hey Darth, this was one of the reasons I decided not to go to grad school. Could you imagine me being even more of a prick than I am already? ;)


Kevin, I want you to know that my conclusion that the LDS Church was not true after a lifetime of membership in it was based on my intractable belief that the KEP were dictated, not transcribed. I am certainly lucky to have been able to depend on your theories after the fact, since I didn't know who you were before I joined this message board.

I am in fact terrified of conceding that maklelan is right about there being a textbook homoioteleuton somewhere in the KEP that proves transcription, as that would destroy my rationale for not believing that Thomas S. Monson is a prophet.
_TBSkeptic
_Emeritus
Posts: 116
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2009 2:39 pm

Re: Zub Zool oan and Abraham 1:2b–3

Post by _TBSkeptic »

maklelan wrote:The differences are additional signs of transcription error. "The Lord said unto Abraham ^me^ get thee unto . . ." is not an intentional revision. "Me" was missed in transcription and was added later, on the wrong side of the word "Abraham."


Well, that's because the copy originally said "The Lord said unto Abraham get thee..." Leaving out the 'me'. How do you know that was unintentional? That sentence makes perfect sense.

Can you point to any other differences that are not most likely transcription errors?


I can see 2 other errors - i'm sure you can find them on your own. The 3rd item I would agree with you is a transcription error (because it was later corrected). The second item - i'm not sure how you can say it is definitely a transcription error (as opposed to an intentional revision of the paragraph above).

Why would he correct the one "error", but not the other 2?
_sock puppet
_Emeritus
Posts: 17063
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2010 2:52 pm

Re: Zub Zool oan and Abraham 1:2b–3

Post by _sock puppet »

Hey, mak,

Of the arguments that you've made in the thread, the two I find best for attacking the KEP as translation "work papers" for Abr 1-3 are--

1-The EG/GAEL documents includes at 4th degree a concept you traced as perhaps originated in the D&C and then there are Grammar derivatives in one degree direction and expansion in the other. Now maybe Joseph Smith alone (no God involved) did that intentionally to give the appearance of Divine concept overlay, God gave imparted the same 'truths' to him (D&C) and as he had to Abraham (on the papyri). But the exactness of the wording between the 4th degree entry and the phrase in the D&C would carry some risk if he were a phony in doing this. So that observation you made likely cuts in favor of apologia.

2-The EG/GAEL documents include concepts and ver batim passages drawn from other sources, D&C and Genesis If I recall correctly, as well as original concepts and passages--indicating that Joseph Smith was drawing on other scriptural sources in the assembly of the EG/GAEL--but only the original materials are also found in the Abr 1-3 text. This too suggests to me that Abr 1-3 might have been completed first and then its concepts drawn upon, along with the other scriptural sources, to cobble together the Grammar for whatever purpose.

For me, most of your other observations seem to be just as capable of if not more supporting the critical point of view than the apologia point of view.
_Kevin Graham
_Emeritus
Posts: 13037
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:44 pm

Re: Zub Zool oan and Abraham 1:2b–3

Post by _Kevin Graham »

Kevin, I want you to know that my conclusion that the LDS Church was not true after a lifetime of membership in it was based on my intractable belief that the KEP were dictated, not transcribed. I am certainly lucky to have been able to depend on your theories after the fact, since I didn't know who you were before I joined this message board.

I am in fact terrified of conceding that maklelan is right about there being a textbook homoioteleuton somewhere in the KEP that proves transcription, as that would destroy my rationale for not believing that Thomas S. Monson is a prophet.


ROFL!

You're killin me man.
_Kevin Graham
_Emeritus
Posts: 13037
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:44 pm

Re: Zub Zool oan and Abraham 1:2b–3

Post by _Kevin Graham »

No they didn't. He didn't provide a single image from Ab2, page 4, and the images from the other pages are only relevant to those pages.

Mak is correct. That image was in response to his question regarding the corresponding Egyptian characters (attributable to Abr 1:1-3) having no relationship to the EAG. So now that Mak has demonstrated a willingness to discuss what that image didn't respond to, who wants to bet money he won't dare discuss what it did respond to?

And he can't use his cop-out that he only wants to discuss Abr 1:1-3 because that is precisely what these characters correspond to.
Here it is again:
Image

Kid's stuff for anyone remotely familiar with these documents.
_CaliforniaKid
_Emeritus
Posts: 4247
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 8:47 am

Re: Zub Zool oan and Abraham 1:2b–3

Post by _CaliforniaKid »

maklelan wrote:Chris or Brent: Can you provide an explanation for why it would be at all reasonable to conclude Smith desired the same text be copied out twice on the same sheet of paper? This is the scenario that Kevin insists makes more sense than homoioteleuton. I contend it makes no sense whatsoever. Unless it can be shown to be a probable scenario, I fail to see how the occurrence of homoioteleuton could possibly be rejected.

Hi Mak,

I am probably alone among the "critics" in this debate in that I do find the "Haran" dittograph argument fairly (though not entirely) persuasive.

I agree that the deliberate recopying explanation is problematic. The objection you raise is one that I have raised on several occasions on this very board. One explanation that was suggested in response is that they were trying to fulfill a requirement for "two or three witnesses" and didn't think it through very well. Someone observed that since the second instance of the paragraph is much messier than the first-- i.e. contains more errors and sloppier punctuation-- it may be that Williams realized the futility of recopying it, and so rushed through it. But I haven't seen good evidence that the "two or three witnesses" requirement was being applied to manuscript-creation during this period. The "revision" rationale also doesn't seem to hold up, since the second instance was actually worse than the first. And re-writing it on the same page obviously wouldn't help protect against manuscript loss. So if this is a deliberate recopying of the previous paragraph, I can't explain why it was done.

I do agree with Kevin that there are some anomalies here though. The characters were not recopied for the second instance of the text or the following phrase; the recopied text is quite lengthy (though not, I think, unprecedented) for a dittograph; the margin is violated; the recopied text is sloppy; and the repetition also occurs in an odd location for a dittograph-- at the end of the document. (It's hard to imagine a scribe coming within five words of the end of a document and then accidentally skipping back up a full paragraph.) The beginning of the recopied portion also happens to coincide exactly with the end of Manuscript 3. These anomalies are not by themselves enough to overturn the copy error interpretation, in my opinion, but perhaps they should give us pause.

What does cause me to have serious doubts about the copy-error explanation is that in pretty much every other respect, Manuscript 2 looks like a dictation transcript. I am at something of a loss to explain the rest of the manuscript evidence under a thoroughgoing visual copying scenario. So at the moment, I am undecided as to the relationship between the translation manuscripts. I'll be looking at the Abraham manuscripts in much more detail when Hauglid's volume is published, and I can look at his high-res images and careful transcriptions. The microfilm just isn't good enough for this kind of detailed text-critical analysis.

Which is to say, I'm not really interested or prepared to debate that question at present. My main interest here is the question of the relationship between the EAG and the Abraham manuscripts. So hopefully I'll have time to get back to you on that issue soon.

Peace,

-Chris
_sock puppet
_Emeritus
Posts: 17063
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2010 2:52 pm

Re: Zub Zool oan and Abraham 1:2b–3

Post by _sock puppet »

sock puppet wrote:Hey, mak,

Of the arguments that you've made in the thread, the two I find best for attacking the KEP as translation "work papers" for Abr 1-3 are--

1-The EG/GAEL documents includes at 4th degree a concept you traced as perhaps originated in the D&C and then there are Grammar derivatives in one degree direction and expansion in the other. Now maybe Joseph Smith alone (no God involved) did that intentionally to give the appearance of Divine concept overlay, God gave imparted the same 'truths' to him (D&C) and as he had to Abraham (on the papyri). But the exactness of the wording between the 4th degree entry and the phrase in the D&C would carry some risk if he were a phony in doing this. So that observation you made likely cuts in favor of apologia.

2-The EG/GAEL documents include concepts and ver batim passages drawn from other sources, D&C and Genesis If I recall correctly, as well as original concepts and passages--indicating that Joseph Smith was drawing on other scriptural sources in the assembly of the EG/GAEL--but only the original materials are also found in the Abr 1-3 text. This too suggests to me that Abr 1-3 might have been completed first and then its concepts drawn upon, along with the other scriptural sources, to cobble together the Grammar for whatever purpose.

For me, most of your other observations seem to be just as capable of if not more supporting the critical point of view than the apologia point of view.


Mak, regarding my #2 above, can you tell me if the original portion in the Grammar, that also found in Abr 1-3 but not taken from D&C or Genesis, was the first so appearing in that part of the Grammar where the portions taken from D&C and Genesis perhaps then followed?
_Kevin Graham
_Emeritus
Posts: 13037
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:44 pm

Re: Zub Zool oan and Abraham 1:2b–3

Post by _Kevin Graham »

The argument about similarities with D&C such an intellectual flop, no text-critic outside the Church would take it seriously. All it does is reinforce the critical viewpoint that all of these documents had a common source: Joseph Smith's imagination.

I pointed this out earlier and asked Mak why this same argument isn't accepted by apologists when critics point out the obvious and more striking similarities between the Book of Mormon and Bible?

He doesn't have the courage to respond to that because he would reveal a double-standard in his methodology. He's only looking for cheap rhetorical points on irrelevancies so he can run back to MADB and claim he has taken down the critics. I should have known that this is all this guy was about, but I made the mistake of giving him the benefit of the doubt.

Lesson learned!
Post Reply