MG & JLHPROF: From Whence Come Spiritual Experiences?

[_Themis]

Feel free. I cannot think of reasons God could not communicate given LDS definitions of who/what God is. The only speculation MG and others have given for why God chooses not to is blind faith. Supposedly God likes blind faith.

The Mormon argument is one of spiritual development. The basic idea is that in addition to our 5 senses there is a 6th. Unlike our ability to see and hear though, spiritual communication is a lot more complicated. So complicated, it takes a lifetime of concerted practice to get much of anywhere with it. The purpose of our mortal existence is to "prove" people according to this spiritual development. This being the case, god hiding his existence from the 5 well-developed senses is exactly the whole point. Are you familiar with Star Trek? Think of counselor Troi. She's a Betazoid and has this ESP-like ability to "read" things. What if we are part of a kind of Betazoid race/species and this is all just a school/bootcamp?

So you cannot provide any reasons. I am aware of the teaching about spiritual development in the LDS church. This thread is very much about questions regarding it, and how naturalistic explanations provide good explanation for the spiritual. Most already knew this, but we gave people a chance to explain how they know the spiritual experience is from a divine source. They of course did not know, which is why some believers started to move the discussion to having to have blind faith. They didn't call their faith blind, but that is what it really is. It is beliefs in which they have poor to no evidence for, and may even know a lot of good evidence against.

[_I have a question]

Where we have got to now seems to be that spiritual experiences can only be differentiated as such if one already believes in God and that he communicates via spiritual experiences.

IHAQ, you're bringing up some good points. Thanks.

I don't know that I have said that spiritual experiences...such as the one I've described in my case...were dependent necessarily on a belief in God. Yes, there may have been a hope...at the time...but there were most definitely doubts/questions that I had in regards to His existence and/or involvement in the world that we/I live in. The belief/hope that I've eventually developed in a personal creator/God came after the burning in the bosom experience. Like I said, in my case it might be that I needed the 'hammer method' in order to bring me to a place that...within the context of my other life experiences...might bring me to a place that I could choose to believe in a God that up to that time I was no looking at as being likely.

Think of the arguments against God. They were all part and parcel of what was going on in my 'mental space'.

So in essence what I'm saying is that for me the spiritual experience, for me, didn't align with a previously held belief...or at least strong belief of any sort...in God. After the experience I then was forced to look at #1, what the heck is going on here...and #2, like you said, what am I to do with this?

As time went on, I did the research and came away believing in the God of Genesis in which we are told that we are created in the image of God. Mormonism and the restoration came later.

And, truth be told, that's still a work in process. Man, it would be nice to have that certain knowledge...but alas, I live by faith. But I do think that the CoJCofLDS...and I've said this before...rises to the top contender in the marketplace of ideas/systems that...for me...seems to make sense in regards to the studies that I've done along the way dealing with, well, all kinds of stuff.

I think living by faith has actually made me stronger in certain respects. Especially in the area of choice. I choose what to believe without the 'silver spoon'.

Regards,
MG

You clearly asserted that you could differentiate between spiritual experiences and self induced feelings.
You explained that the differentiater was a qualitative burning in the bosom.
You then explained you only identified the qualitative burning in the bosom as a spiritual experience in hindsight rather than at the time you had it.
You then introduced the idea that determining what a burning in the bosom meant was predicated on ones predetermined belief in God.
And then you backed out of that one.
And now you’ve introduced the proposition that determining the difference is something to do with the sensation not aligning with a previously held belief.
You’re now saying you’re not certain about any of this.

I don’t know what more to say other than it has been, quite literally, like trying to grow rocks.

As an addendum to my relating of my experience.
I prayed for a witness that the Book of Mormon was true. I did this many times. Across many years. I did this sincerely, after much study and many times of reading it. I got nothing. No witness. No spiritual experience. Nothing. A stupor of thought, every time. Until one day I was researching a lesson on the translation of the Book of Mormon. I wanted a visual and went looking. Along came an image of Joseph with his head in a hat. I’m like “WTF?”. I studied. I studied some more. I concluded the Book of Mormon wasn’t what it purported to be. I prayed about that conclusion and asked if I was right. I received the qualitative burning in the bosom I described earlier.

Spiritual phenomena, or self induced feeling....

[_Themis]

The "burning in the bosom" is something qualitatively different from anything else I have ever experienced in my life through my natural senses. Granted, the 'streaming thoughts' I'm referring to above could simply be interpreted as being simply 'thoughts'. But I see them differently.

When it comes to the burning feeling in the very core of the body going from head to toe...knowing that it isn't a lightning strike ...that's another thing altogether.

Regards,
MG

Really? You assume that you have experienced every natural feeling you body is capable of. I would never make that mistake to think I have experienced even most of what my body is capable of producing.

[_Themis]

For you, apparently, full disclosure is necessary for you to believe. But then would that be faith?

Yes it would. I already gave you examples of having really good knowledge/experience that results in strong faith. You keep promoting blind faith and miss the other.

[_Themis]

Complete knowledge and free will to boot. What a deal! Where do we sign up?

Regards,
MG

The point is more knowledge means more free will to make the best choice. How would gaining more knowledge limit one in making the best choice?

[_grindael]

I bet he hasn't experienced the feeling of drinking deadly poison. I bet he never will, because his claimed priesthood power would never save him. Who knows, maybe it would be the exact same feeling as the burning in the bosom...

You'll never know until you try Mental. Your own book of scripture says that your God will protect you and that you must do it if someone requires it as proof of your priesthood. I notice you ignored this. Can't say that I blame you... it's just more of Smith's BS. Like the "burning in the bosom".

[_DrW]

IHAQ,

Thank you for a pretty much definitive summary of the MG / Choice 1 position regarding manifestations of the spirit, faith based discernment of truth, and associated transcendent phenomena that seem so central to the worldview of the faithful.

Thanks for sticking with it.

Nobody does it better.

- You clearly asserted that you could differentiate between spiritual experiences and self induced feelings.

- You explained that the differentiater was a qualitative burning in the bosom.

- You then explained you only identified the qualitative burning in the bosom as a spiritual experience in hindsight rather than at the time you had it.

- You then introduced the idea that determining what a burning in the bosom meant was predicated on ones predetermined belief in God.

- And then you backed out of that one.

- And now you’ve introduced the proposition that determining the difference is something to do with the sensation not aligning with a previously held belief.

- You’re now saying you’re not certain about any of this.

I don’t know what more to say other than it has been, quite literally, like trying to grow rocks.

[_mentalgymnast]

I concluded the Book of Mormon wasn’t what it purported to be. I prayed about that conclusion and asked if I was right. I received the qualitative burning in the bosom I described earlier.

Spiritual phenomena, or self induced feeling....

When you say you "received the qualitative burning in the bosom", did you consider it to be from an outside source or self induced?

Regards,
MG

[_mentalgymnast]

The "burning in the bosom" is something qualitatively different from anything else I have ever experienced in my life through my natural senses. Granted, the 'streaming thoughts' I'm referring to above could simply be interpreted as being simply 'thoughts'. But I see them differently.

When it comes to the burning feeling in the very core of the body going from head to toe...knowing that it isn't a lightning strike ...that's another thing altogether.

Regards,
MG

Really? You assume that you have experienced every natural feeling you body is capable of. I would never make that mistake to think I have experienced even most of what my body is capable of producing.

I've considered this. That is always a possibility. It seems as though at the end of the day we're left to wonder, as I mentioned. I think it is this sense of wonder that causes a certain degree of questioning along with the feeling of confirmation. Yes, I think both can coexist and even come into conflict with each other.

I think that is at least partially the reason IHAQ observes me bouncing around a bit trying to put my thoughts together in regards to, what to me, is a rather difficult thing to actually conceptualize and clearly describe and talk about.

That was one of the reasons I was a bit hesitant to do so.

Regards,
MG

[_Lemmie]

IHAQ,

Thank you for a pretty much definitive summary of the MG / Choice 1 position regarding manifestations of the spirit, faith based discernment of truth, and associated transcendent phenomena that seem so central to the worldview of the faithful.

Thanks for sticking with it.

Nobody does it better.

Agreed! Thanks, ihaq-- and thank you DrW, for a great thread.