Take It From The Top...

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_harmony
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Post by _harmony »

Coggins7 wrote:Done. Bye Scratch, and don't think it hasn't been a little slice of heaven--because it hasn't.

Loran


Luckily, in this forum, you don't get to decide who can participate on any given thread and who can't. So your "done" is immaterial. You're beginning to look like you don't know what you're talking about, Loran. In other words, it's you who looks stupid, not Scratch.

Answer him or be forever branded as a lightweight. If you can't even use a standard definition of the word, then you have no standing here. We don't make up definitions to fit our argument; we use the standard definition, or nothing.

Now either get on with it, or shut the hell up. You're derailing the thread.
_Sam Harris
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Post by _Sam Harris »

Coggins7 wrote:Done. Bye Scratch, and don't think it hasn't been a little slice of heaven--because it hasn't.

Loran


LOL! All you did on here was throw out as many accusations as you claimed others did on Wade's thread. I really wish both you and he would take your psychological masturbation, and you with your blatant racism (my name is not Angela asshole) elsewhere.
Each one has to find his peace from within. And peace to be real must be unaffected by outside circumstances. -Ghandi
_Sam Harris
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Post by _Sam Harris »

harmony wrote:
Coggins7 wrote:Done. Bye Scratch, and don't think it hasn't been a little slice of heaven--because it hasn't.

Loran


Luckily, in this forum, you don't get to decide who can participate on any given thread and who can't. So your "done" is immaterial. You're beginning to look like you don't know what you're talking about, Loran. In other words, it's you who looks stupid, not Scratch.

Answer him or be forever branded as a lightweight. If you can't even use a standard definition of the word, then you have no standing here. We don't make up definitions to fit our argument; we use the standard definition, or nothing.

Now either get on with it, or shut the hell up. You're derailing the thread.


Haven't you noticed that both he and Wade create threads full of accusations, assumptions, and calls for "proof" that they can't handle, that they ultimately end up derailing when they can't take the heat? He derailed the thread because he couldn't come up with the mettle he said he had. Just like Wade and his McTherapy.
Each one has to find his peace from within. And peace to be real must be unaffected by outside circumstances. -Ghandi
_harmony
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Post by _harmony »

Haven't you noticed that both he and Wade create threads full of accusations, assumptions, and calls for "proof" that they can't handle, that they ultimately end up derailing when they can't take the heat? He derailed the thread because he couldn't come up with the mettle he said he had. Just like Wade and his McTherapy.


What I've noticed is a lot of words but very little substance. A lot of hot air but no lift. Typical of them both.
_marg

Re: Take It From The Top...

Post by _marg »

Coggins7 wrote:




The next track to pursue would be detailed, point for point examination of the examples of deception critics claim demonstrate mendacity on the part of either Joseph or the modern church to see, under the stern light of philosophical and scholarly rigor, if they hold up to inspection.


Loran, what happened to the metal plates J.Smith translated from?
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

Luckily, in this forum, you don't get to decide who can participate on any given thread and who can't. So your "done" is immaterial. You're beginning to look like you don't know what you're talking about, Loran. In other words, it's you who looks stupid, not Scratch.

Answer him or be forever branded as a lightweight. If you can't even use a standard definition of the word, then you have no standing here. We don't make up definitions to fit our argument; we use the standard definition, or nothing.

Now either get on with it, or shut the hell up. You're derailing the thread.


Loran:

I did answer the question, several times. So did Wade. The discussion with Scratch is over because he knows precisely what I'm talking about and he knows the careful delimitations I placed on the debate in an attempt to keep in tightly focused and on track. Scatch is a provocateur and a demagogue, not a serious critic of anything, and discourse with him, as, it seems, with you, is, for all intents and purposes, is useless.

By the way, here's the definition of the term from Answers.com:

1. A false statement deliberately presented as being true; a falsehood

2. Something meant to decieve or give the wrong impression/

3. To present false information with the intention of deceiveing.

4. To convey a false image or impression.

5. To cause to be in a specific condition or affect in a specific way by telling falsehoods

And from Wikipidia:

A lie is an untruthful statement made to someone else with the intention to deceive. To lie is to say something one believes to be false with the intention that it be taken for the truth by someone else.

A true statement may be a lie. If the person who makes the true statement genuinely believes it to be false, and makes the statement with the intention that his audience believe it to be true, then this is a lie (see Jean-Paul Sartre, Le Mur (1937)). When a person lies he or she necessarily is untruthful, but he or she is not necessarily making an untrue statement.

I checked my Oxford American Dictionary and my Webster's and found nothing close to Scractch's definitions except one in Websters, which was essentially the giving of false impression or statement, especially with the intent to decieve. This is difficult philosophically, as it imputes guile to false statements of unspecified kinds--including philosophical or metaphysical, whose truth value may not be ascertainable in a stratghtforward way and in which the one making the claim may be a sincere believer in the statements being made. In any event. The overwhelming body of lexical definitionss are all explicit or implicit in the presense of conscious awareness that the lie is being told and that the information conveyed therin is false. That is the only way I mean the term to be taken in relation to this thread and the questions I posed.

If neither you nor Scratch are capable of handling such a discussion with a modicum of intellectual honesty and the throwing of endless red herrings into the water, then this thread will, I suppose, go the way of Wade's.

Loran
_wenglund
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Post by _wenglund »

Mister Scratch wrote:
wenglund wrote:Loran,

Bless your heart for attempting to open-mindedly reason with these good folks. But, I trust that your intents, while certainly laudable, are doomed to begin with--and this because you are shining the light of critical analysis on them. (From my experience these good folks are highly averse and hyper-sensitive to that--note, for example, all the irrelevant hand-wringing, deflecting, rationalizing, accusing and so forth that has gone on in each and every thread I have started about them. In fact, amazingly enough, in the thread I devoted to you and me, there was even some irrelevant self-justifying and accusing going on.)

I suspect that some, if not all, are hyper-critical and prolific in their criticism of the Church because it supposedly provides a way of keeping the focus on the Church and away from them. Were it not for their seeming abject fear of being discovered for who they really are (or more correctly, as they irrationally view themselves), they may have little or no motives to take issue with the Church, but would become like numerous leave-takers who move on with their lives in relative silence about the Church.


Who are these people, Wade? You have yet to provide even a single shred of evidence that such people even exist.


You keep repeating this falsehood as though repeating it will somehow make it true. (Hint: it won't) The fact of the matter is (as may easily be demostrated, at least to those interested and able, by reading my posts to you on the Cognitive Distortion thread), I did provide evidence. Granted, it was anecdotal evidence, but evidence nontheless, and sufficient evidence to reasonably demonstrate the existence of Mr. D's. That you were unpersuaded by the evidence, is irrelevant to the fact that evidence was presented.

Ironically, though, there were no less than three occasions on that same thread where I asked you for evidence for your belief that Mr. D's don't exist, and you evaded and refused to answer.

So, not only do you keep on falsely accusing me of not providing a shread of evidence, but ironically you are the one who is guilty as charged.

However, I doubt that reality will register in your self-deluded and closed mind, and so I won't argue with you about it.

By you reasonably challenging their "criticisms", that inadvertantly shifts the focus back on them, and undermines their supposed strategy. Essentially, you are asking them to face what may be one of their biggest fears, and one they may have worked very hard to evoid like the plague. I don't see them allowing that to happen, even though it may well be to their benefit to face that fear.

What they have going for them is that they are in the overwhelming majority here, and thus can drown-out the supposed threat, and find ample support and enabling for their dysfunctional strategy.

However, even though you have little chance of realizing your reasonable intents for this thread, the good folks here make it worth the try, and I applaud you for your efforts. Also, if there is a silver lining in all of this: the seemingly significant issue of the critics intense aversion to being critiqued is inadvertantly illuminated and underscored.


Ironically, you've never specified what it is that you think is being critiqued by the critics. You've said that the Church is "the most precious and dear" thing in your life, but beyond that, it's unclear what criticisms---specifically---you take issue with.


One would have to be profoundly blind and/or seriously comprehension challenged not to recognize the titles of the threads ("has the Church lied about what it claims to be? and Cognitive Distortions: lies and deciet) and some of the openning remarks of those threads (for example; "One of the many issues raised by certain former members: Has the Church lied about what it claims to be? In other words, has it deceived people about what it claims to be? Has it acted in bad faith in what it claims to be?" and "2. Mr. B purchased Mr. A's product a long time ago, and believed in it and invested a lot of time and energy and money in the product over the years. However, recently Mr. B stopped believing in the product, and now believes that Mr. A lied about the product (believing that the product isn't what it is claimed to be), and that considerable time and energy and money was spent under false pretenses. Naturally, Mr. B was hurt and angered and felt a great loss, which led to his venting and grieving at a public gathering of others who felt the same way as him.") as blatantly obvious identifiers of what specific critiques of the critics I was referring to.

What isn't ironic, but fully expected, is that you are still uncertain about what has been clearly, explicitly, and blatantly obvious. Such is the nature of a closed mind.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-
_harmony
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Post by _harmony »

By the way, here's the definition of the term from Answers.com:

1. A false statement deliberately presented as being true; a falsehood


Which would then brand Joseph's blatant falsehood from the pulpit regarding Emma being his only wife, while his hidden marriages numbered higher and higher, as a... lie. Repeated in the newspaper and in speech over and over again, until the day he died.

2. Something meant to decieve or give the wrong impression/


Which would be when Joseph wrote the witness statements and convinced those 8 men to sign them, without them ever having seen what he hid from them under the cloth.

3. To present false information with the intention of deceiveing.


Which would be every financial statement given in conference since 1959.

4. To convey a false image or impression.


Which would be every membership count given in conference for a long long time.

5. To cause to be in a specific condition or affect in a specific way by telling falsehoods


Which would be our present (and past) missionary program.

Gotcha. So what is your point?
_Coggins7
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Post by _Coggins7 »

Loran, what happened to the metal plates J.Smith translated from?


Loran:

Well, according to Joseph Smith, they were taken back by Moroni and are presently residing in another dimension or plane of reality we would normally call a Kingdom, or other spere of existence.

The same thing is claimed to have happened on a number of occasions, especially to actual individuals. Enoch was taken into heaven, and LDS doctrine adds that this included an entire city and people. Jesus was taken up into heaven, and can no longer be physically seen or felt in this mortal sphere of existence (The Ark apparanty suffered the same fate relative to those who seek empirical, objective proof of spiritual realities).

These are the claims of the church and its leaders on that point, as also the claims of the 1st Century apostles on the condition of Jesus after his crucifixion and internment.

The problem inherant here would only have real meaning, in my estimation, for a thoroughgoing metaphysical materialist. For someone who is capable of percieving alternative avenues to truth other than strictly empirical and objectively demonstratable, this point, while legitimately raising questions, is hardly the imposting wall it would be in other areas if approached in the appropriate manner.

Loran
_Runtu
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Post by _Runtu »

By the way, here's the definition of the term from Answers.com:

1. A false statement deliberately presented as being true; a falsehood


A more recent example would be Gordon B. Hinckley's and Hugh Pinnock's direct and repeated lies to the police during the Hofmann investigation, which included denying having dealt much with Hofmann and also withholding crucial evidence (such as that the church owned the disputed McLellin collection) that resulted in the state's resorting to a plea bargain. I'd say those qualify as deliberate false statements.
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