How does this quote square with the LGT?

[_beastie]

That is a good one, who knows. LGTists would probably dissect the word "source".

by the way, plutarch, Mesoamerica as the setting hardly has the bulk of scientific evidence in its favor. No civilization the like described in the Book of Mormon existed during Mesoamerica during that time period, simply in terms of political power and empire. Just based on the statements clearly conveying political control in the Book of Mormon, both the Nephite and Lamanite civilizations would have exceeded even the Aztecs.

Of course, that problem is multiplied in the hemispheric model, but if you already have to dance around science, why not keeping dancing with the prophets, as you say.

[_rcrocket]

That is a good one, who knows. LGTists would probably dissect the word "source".

by the way, plutarch, Mesoamerica as the setting hardly has the bulk of scientific evidence in its favor. No civilization the like described in the Book of Mormon existed during Mesoamerica during that time period, simply in terms of political power and empire. Just based on the statements clearly conveying political control in the Book of Mormon, both the Nephite and Lamanite civilizations would have exceeded even the Aztecs.

Of course, that problem is multiplied in the hemispheric model, but if you already have to dance around science, why not keeping dancing with the prophets, as you say.

I dunno. I am only a lay person but the comparative time lines in Sorenson's books seem plausible.

I personally think that much of the events of the Book of Mormon occurred in the Tennessee Valley, where there is much evidence of earthen works and advanced civilization (see the book, 1491), but what do I know.

[_Runtu]

That is a good one, who knows. LGTists would probably dissect the word "source".

by the way, plutarch, Mesoamerica as the setting hardly has the bulk of scientific evidence in its favor. No civilization the like described in the Book of Mormon existed during Mesoamerica during that time period, simply in terms of political power and empire. Just based on the statements clearly conveying political control in the Book of Mormon, both the Nephite and Lamanite civilizations would have exceeded even the Aztecs.

Of course, that problem is multiplied in the hemispheric model, but if you already have to dance around science, why not keeping dancing with the prophets, as you say.

I dunno. I am only a lay person but the comparative time lines in Sorenson's books seem plausible.

I personally think that much of the events of the Book of Mormon occurred in the Tennessee Valley, where there is much evidence of earthen works and advanced civilization (see the book, 1491), but what do I know.

I'm reading that book right now. Fascinating stuff.

[_rcrocket]

I'm reading that book right now. Fascinating stuff.

What is really significant about Charles Mann's book is that it demonstrates there are two conflicting views of pre-Columbian Indian populations. One view (held by a Roosevelt, the granddaughter of Teddy, I believe and an anthropologist) is the minority "high count" view which holds to the theory of an extremely advanced civilization. The Brazilian forest is not virgin; the Prarie grasslands were not virgin; Native American society managed these forests for game productivity and some agriculture. The other view, the majority, is that Native Americans were eco-friendly and the Western Hemisphere was largely empty when Europeons arrived. But De Soto's description of the civilization he encountered in the Ohio or Tennessee valley conflict significantly with the English explorers who arrived 200 years later. Mann theorizes that the brief Spanish contact introduced smallpox or other diseases which wiped out 90-95% (I am estimating my recollection of the book) of the population of North America.

An article in the Atlantic summarizes the view of the book but it requires a subscription to view it. www.theatlantic.com/doc/prem/200203/mann

[_The Dude]

Hemispheric. LGT theorists have little basis upon which to base their theories, although there are points to be made about the times and distances mentioned in the Book of Mormon.

Points made about times and distances are not definitive in breaking the LGT/HGT debate. It is perfectly consistent with the text for major Book of Mormon events to have occurred in a limited area (take your pick), leaving the rest of the hemisphere to be populated by Lehite/Mulekite groups that broke off and traveled northward, southward and to the islands of the sea. The bulk of the Book of Mormon story can have a limited geography, but to be consistent with the text's own prophecy and statements by LDS leaders, there should have been a hemispheric influence by Book of Mormon people. No trace of this influence has been established outside faithful apologetic circles.

You say LDS theorists have little basis for their theories. I've always thought the only necessary basis was squaring interpretations of the Book of Mormon with science, and a theory that predicts no evidence meets that need. What basis are you looking for, Plutarch?

[_rcrocket]

You say LDS theorists have little basis for their theories. I've always thought the only necessary basis was squaring interpretations of the Book of Mormon with science, and a theory that predicts no evidence meets that need. What basis are you looking for, Plutarch?

What do you mean by "a theory that predicts no evidence meets that need?" I say that lack of evidence means that you cannot imply that evidence will be found some day. Beware of any argument, apologetic or otherwise, which says that simply because there is no evidence doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

My comments are directed not to "LDS theorists" but to "LGT theorists." I think that Joseph Smith plainly understood and told others his views of the ancient inhabitants of the Americas. Even Lucy Mack Smith recounts Joseph's "dreams" on the topic.

P

[_beastie]

No. There was no civilization who controlled the area described even in the most limited scenario of LGT during the specified time period. There were possible early city-states who controlled a very small region right around their city, but that is not what is described in the Book of Mormon.

Moreover, Sorenson is very unreliable in his references. Here's one example:

The following quote is from Ancient American Setting, page 284:

“The possibility that smelted iron either has been or may yet be found is enhanced by a find at Teotihuacan. A pottery vessel dating to about AD 300, and apparently used for smelting, contained a “metallic-looking” mass. Analyzed chemically, it proved to contain copper and iron. Linee, the same Swedish archaeologist who made that find, accepted a piece of iron found in a tomb at Mitla, Oaxaca, as probably refined.”

The footnotes Dr. Sorenson attaches to this information are:

“Sigvald Linne, Mexican Highland Cultures, Ethnographical Museum of Sweden, Publication 7, ns (Stockholm, 1942), p. 132

Sigvald Linne, Zapotecan Antiquities, Ehthnographical Museum of Sweden, Publication 4, ns (Stockholm, 1938), p. 75”

I obtained Linne’s Mexican Highland Cultures text. This particular section was a dig of the Tlamimilolpa House Ruin in Teotihuacan. At the beginning of the section, Linne spends some time describing the actual site and how they proceeded. Then he lists the objects excavated therein. 13 graves were discovered below the floors of different rooms, and the object in question was discovered in Burial site 1, the earliest of said graves. He first lists approximately sixteen different types of pottery vessels, bowls, dishes, jars, lids, miniature vessels. He then lists beads and figurine fragments. Next he lists obsidian knives and tools. Then he moves into listing the mineral type objects. This is the area of the list wherein this item occurs. From page 132:

“1 object of pyrite, rounded and highly polished, fig. 236. Analysis reveals a high percentage of iron and sulphur: specific gravity 4.88

1 piece of pyrite, of rectangular shape and with one side slightly convex and polished; 1.3 x 0.9x 0.1 cm. Was no doubt originally set in the eye of a mask of the typeshown in pls. 3-5.

Metallic-resembling substance, small, irregular shaped pieces. Analysis has shown them to contain copper and iron, but no zinc, tin, or antimony.

2 bone implements, short and tapering, though not sharp-pointed. Have possibly been used for flaking off knives from obsidian blocks. Figs. 248, 254.

1 thin, flat bone object with a blunt point and a hole pierced for a suspension cord or the like, fig. 249”

He then proceeds to list teeth and shells.

After listing all the objects, he writes some notes and draws some conclusions. Under the heading “Tools and ornaments of obsidian, stone, and mica”, he states:

“Of peculiar character are a rounded object, fig. 236, and fragments of a circular plate, both from Burial 1. The latter, which has the appearance of rusty iron, may have been a mirror. Analysis has shown both of them to contain a large proportion of sulphur and iron, and they are undoubtedly iron pyrite. There can be no doubt that certain pre-Spanish objects described as being of iron are nothing but pyrite. Weathering has made them look rusty. The diameter of the flat disc is 6 cm, which roughly corresponds to the average size of the Mexican pyrite mirrors included in Nordenskiold’s study of convex and concave mirrors in America. Unfortunately the surface is so badly weathered that it is impossible to determine the way in which it is ground. Nordenskiold has, however, found that the majority of pre-Spanish mirrors – all of them from Mexico, Ecuador, and the Peruvian coast – are convex and consist of pyrite. In Musee de l’Homme, Paris, there is one which forms part of Charnay’s collection and is stated to have come from Teotihuacan. Nordenskiold further adduces a Mexican picture-writing in which among other things is seen a man using a mirror. The picture-writing in question is said to originate from Cholula. Mirrors were naturally in great demand as an article of trade and even formed part of the barter goods with which the great raft that Bartolome Ruiz in 1526 encountered off the coast of Ecuador was loaded.”

Under the pottery section, this is listed:

“6 bowls with flat bottom, curving sides and exceedingly rudimentary feet, fig. 203. They are black, polished, and with a surface of almost metallic luster. One of them is ornamented with incised curved lines, fig. 217”

As should be obvious, nothing in this passage supports Dr. Sorenson’s reference to a vessel used for smelting, with an analyzed residue at the bottom.

I attempted to reach Dr. Sorenson about this problem, and he answered me via Dan Peterson on the FAIR site. Due to FAIR’s copyright restrictions, I cannot copy his response, but will paraphrase it. Interested readers should be able to find the thread in the archives through the search function, under “Sorenson’s footnote”. Dr. Sorenson admitted that the referenced footnote was incorrect, and that he obtained the information through a private correspondence that he no longer has. He dismissed the concern over such a misuse of a source by saying it was a “tempest in a teapot”, and there were plenty of other references to support his assertions.

I was not able to personally obtain the second reference, but a friend accessed it at her library and kindly copied the pertinent section for me.
“Page 53 (first reference):
"In a grave-chamber situated in the present village were among other things found 20 bells and a number of tweezers of copper, part of a small, circular iron plate, a necklace consisting of small, perforated shells, and a rasping bone. The iron plate is no doubt to be counted among the most remarkable objects that have at any time been discovered in Mexico seeing there is nothing to indicate that it is of post-Columbian origin (cf. p. 75). Hitherto it has always been held as an axiom that iron was unknown to the Indians of ancient America. A clay vessel found in this grave was of Mixtecan type. In a neighbouring grave-chamber were, among other things, found a "metate" (grinding stone) with its "mano" (muller), and a large number of clay vessels referable to Period V."

Page 75-76:

"At the researches that were carried out in the excavation season 1934 - 35 at Mitla there was, as already mentioned, discovered a grave (No. 5) in which, among other things, was found a small iron plate.[28] The grave in question no doubt dates from the time when the Mixtecs were in possession. The chemist, connected with the Instituto de Geología, Universidad Nacional de Mexico, that analysed this object reports on it as follows:
Insolube .......................................... poquisimo
Fierro ............................................... bastante
Aluminio ......................................... poco
Azufre ............................................. bastante
Carbón ............................................ muy poco
"Unfortunately the above analysis cannot, however, be considered satisfactory. To the metallurgist, a quantitative analysis would have revealed the metod by which the iron was produced. The statement that the iron contained a considerable percentage of sulphur is not by itself of any very great value as it merely indicates that the metal was extracted by a primitive method."
_______
[28] Caso, Alfonso y Rubin de la Borbolla, D.F. (1936) Exploraciones en Mitla 1934-1935 (Instituto Panamericano de Geografia e Historia, publicación no. 21, Mexico 1936).”

This source seems to actually give support to his assertion, except for one minor problem. Mitla was occupied by the Mixtecs in the wrong time period to fit the Book of Mormon.
“The word Mitla comes from the Náhuatl word Mictlan, meaning place of the dead or underworld.In the Zapotec language this place is called Lyobaa, meaning place of rest or burial place.
The Mitla archaeological site is located within the town of Mitla, officially San Pablo Villa de Mitla, at the northern end of town. The site is located in the Tlacolula Valley which is one of the three valleys that intersect at the archaeological site of Monte Albán to the west. Mitla is 48km east of Oaxaca, at an elevation of 4855' (1480 meters). From Oaxaca city, travel east of Hwy 190 and follow the signs to Mitla.
Mitla was inhabited in the Classic Period (100-650 AD), and possibly as early as 900 BC. It appears to have been at its peak occupation in the Post Classic Period (750-1521 AD). It was inhabited by the Zapotec people although it was under the control of the Mixtecs from about 1000 AD to 1200 AD and then fell to the Aztecs in 1494.”

I included this and other examples in my essays on the Book of Mormon setting in Mesoamerica at:

http://zarahemlacitylimits.com/wiki/ind ... esoamerica

The section "polities and power" talks in detail about the fact that there was no civilization in ancient mesoamerica during the specified time period that had a polity described in the Book of Mormon.

[_The Dude]

I say that lack of evidence means that you cannot imply that evidence will be found some day. Beware of any argument, apologetic or otherwise, which says that simply because there is no evidence doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

You're telling me! LOL.

My comments are directed not to "LDS theorists" but to "LGT theorists."

My mistake.

I think that Joseph Smith plainly understood and told others his views of the ancient inhabitants of the Americas. Even Lucy Mack Smith recounts Joseph's "dreams" on the topic.

I think he convinced people that he plainly understood the ancient Americans. Back then, few could have proved him wrong.

[_beastie]

I think he convinced people that he plainly understood the ancient Americans. Back then, few could have proved him wrong.

Not only that, but his ideas were pretty consistent with what many, if not most, people thought about the ancient Americans, anyway.

[_rcrocket]

Moreover, Sorenson is very unreliable in his references. Here's one example:

You are asking the wrong person to defend Sorenson. I have told you I disagree with the LGT. But, I have found his timelines rather compelling. I am only a lay person, but I did hire a university professor [no big deal; he had a contract with the museum to supplement his income] to escort me through the National Museum of Anthropology in Mexico City and he, not knowing I was Mormon, volunteered the presence of two different races in Mesoamerica, one white and one dark, and offered time lines for the rise and fall of civilizations which seemed to square with Sorenson's views. (My guide suggested earlier northern European contact than Columbus.) As he was carrying on an argument with another anthropologist in my presence (in English, to my great luck), I could see that there were varying views. But, I just claim to be casual reader in the area.

P