Steve Benson's bizarre behavior on the RfM board

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_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

But back to the topic, I respect Dan Vogel as a researcher but I have no choice but to categorically reject his "pious fraud" theory. I am persuaded that the Spalding/Rigdon theory of Book of Mormon origins is by far the likeliest one. That being the case, Sidney Rigdon is the most likely candidate for pious fraud, but Joseph Smith is all but precluded from being so.


Why?
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

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_harmony
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Post by _harmony »

Dr. Shades wrote:Oh my gosh! In the equivalent thread at MA&D, I just saw the ultimate "Pot. . . meet Kettle" post, compliments of "Confidential Informant." Writing to Dan Vogel, he says:

As to Steve Benson's criticisms, I find you much more agreeable for the simple fact that you are willing to bring your arguments to a hostile forum. Benson has NEVER even attempted to this and, quite frankly, strikes me as being frightened to leave the safe little coccon of his cloistered website with all of his fans to pat him on the back and tell him what a great job he's doing.


I'm sure CI has no idea why you would find that statement at all remarkable. Even asking him to look at DCP the same way he looks at Benson would be asking too much. The irony. Oh, the irony.

And it's interesting that CI sees MAD as "hostile" to Dan Vogel. Wow. Hostile. Now there's a loaded word.
_Dr. Shades
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Post by _Dr. Shades »

beastie wrote:
But back to the topic, I respect Dan Vogel as a researcher but I have no choice but to categorically reject his "pious fraud" theory. I am persuaded that the Spalding/Rigdon theory of Book of Mormon origins is by far the likeliest one. That being the case, Sidney Rigdon is the most likely candidate for pious fraud, but Joseph Smith is all but precluded from being so.


Why?


Because Joseph went along with it for the money and/or prestige. Rigdon was the one who wrote the book to serve religious purposes, but Joseph knowingly served as the front-man.

There's also the question of prior "track record:" Rigdon had been a religious preacher, teacher, and sermonizer long before the Book of Mormon came about, whereas Joseph had been a glass-looker and money-digger.
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"

--Louis Midgley
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

Because Joseph went along with it for the money and/or prestige. Rigdon was the one who wrote the book to serve religious purposes, but Joseph knowingly served as the front-man.

There's also the question of prior "track record:" Rigdon had been a religious preacher, teacher, and sermonizer long before the Book of Mormon came about, whereas Joseph had been a glass-looker and money-digger.


Rigdon tried to advance in prestige in the Campbellite movement to no avail. That's probably why he needed a "partner". He always viewed himself as the rightful leader of the church. Throughout his life, he continued to attempt to persuade those who still believed in his mission to send him monetary support, and when his sanity became questionable at the end of his life, even threatened those who didn't comply adequately. He was cohorts with Joseph Smith in many of the more questionable monetary activities.

So I don't see how Rigdon wasn't also after prestige and money.

Personally, I think that human beings tend to hide our true motivations even to ourselves. We fool ourselves before we fool others. I shared this on RFM, from Robert Wright's book The Moral Animal:

Page 263,
Chapter 13 Deception and Self-Deception

"What wretched doings come from the ardor of fame; the love of truth alone would never make one man attack another bitterly. "
Letter to J. D. Hooker (1848)

Natural selection’s disdain for the principal of truth in advertising is widely evident. Some female fireflies in the genus Photuris mimic the mating flash of females in the genus Photunis and then, having attracted a Photunis male, eat him. Some orchids look quite like female wasps, the better to lure the male wasps that then unwittingly spread pollen. Some harmless snakes have evolved the coloration of poisonous snakes, gaining undeserved respect. Some butterfly pupa bear an uncanny resemblance to a snake’s head – fake scales, fake eyes – and, if bothered, start rattling around menacingly. In short: organisms may present themselves as whatever it is in their genetic interest to seem like.

People appear to be no exception. In the late 1950s and early sixties, the (non-Darwinian) social scientist Erving Goffman made a stir with a book called The Presentation of Self in Everyday Life, which stressed how much time we all spend on stage, playing to one audience or another, striving for effect. But there is a difference between us and many other performers in the animal kingdom. Whereas the female Photuris is, presumably, under no illusion as to its true identity, human beings have a way of getting taken in by their acts. Sometime, Goffman marveled, a person is “sincerely convinced that the impression of reality which he stages is the real reality.”

What modern Darwinism brings to Goffman’s obsession is, among other things, theory about the function of the confusion: we deceive ourselves in order to deceive others better. This hypothesis was tossed out during the mid-1970s by both Richard Alexander and Robert Trivers. In his foreword to Richard Dawkin’s The Selfish Gene, Trivers noted Dawkin’s emphasis on the role of deception in animal life and added, in a much-cited passage, that if indeed “deceit is fundamental to animal communication, then there must be strong selection to spot deception and this ought, in turn, to select for a degree of self-deception, rendering some facts and motives unconscious so as not to betray – by the subtle signs of self-knowledge – the deception being practiced.” Thus, Trivers ventured, “the conventional view that natural selection favors nervous systems which produce ever more accurate images of the world must be a very naïve view of mental evolution.”

It should come as no surprise that the study of self-deception makes for murky science. “Awareness” is a region with ill-defined and porous borders. The truth, or certain aspects of it, may float in and out of awareness, or hover on the periphery, present yet not distinct. And even assuming we could confirm that someone is wholly unaware of information relevant to some situation, whether this constitutes self-deception is another question altogether. Is the information somewhere in the mind, blocked from consciousness by a censor designed for that function? Or did the person just fail to take
note of the information in the first place? If so, is that selective perception itself a result of specific evolutionary design for self-deception? Or a more general reflection of the fact that the mind can hold only so much information (and the conscious mind even less)? Such difficulties of analysis are one reason the science Trivers envisioned two decades ago – a rigorous study of self-deception, which might finally yield a clear picture of the unconscious mind – has not arrived.

Still, the intervening years have tended to validate the drift of Dawkin’s and Triver’s and Alexander’s worldview: our accurate depiction of reality – to others, and, sometimes, to ourselves – is not high on natural selection’s list of priorities. The new paradigm helps us map the terrain of human deception and self-deception, if at a low level of resolution.

We’ve already explored one realm of deception; sex. Men and women may mislead each other – and even, in the process, themselves – about the likely endurance of their commitment or about their likely fidelity. There are two other large realms in which the presentation of self, and the perception of others, has great Darwinian consequence: reciprocal altruism and social hierarchy. Here, as with sex, honesty can be a major blunder. In fact, reciprocal altruism and social hierarchy may together be responsible for most of the dishonesty in our species – which, in turn, accounts for a good part of the dishonesty in the animal kingdom. We are far from the only dishonest species, but we are surely the most dishonest, if only because we do the most talking.

>>>>On self deception, justification, and the murkiness of motives


Page 273

Reciprocal altruism brings its own agenda to the presentation of self, and thus to the deception of self. Whereas status hierarchies place a premium on our seeming competent, attractive, strong, smart, etcetera, reciprocal altruism puts its accent on niceness, integrity, fairness. These are the things that make us seem like worthy reciprocal altruists. They make people want to strike up relationships with us. Puffing up our reputations as decent and generous folks can’t hurt, and it often helps.

Richard Alexander, in particular, has stressed the evolutionary importance of moral self-advertisements. In The Biology of Moral Systems he writes that “modern society is filled with myths” about our goodness: “that scientists are humble and devoted truth-seekers; that doctors dedicate their lives to alleviation of suffering; that teachers dedicate their lives to alleviation of suffering; that we are all basically law-abiding, kind, altruistic souls who place everyone’s interests before our own.”
There’s no reason moral self-inflation has to involve self-deception. But there’s little doubt that it can. The unconscious convolutions by which we convince ourselves of our goodness were seen in the laboratory before the theory of reciprocal altruism was around to explain them. In various experiments, subjects have been told to behave cruelly toward someone, to say mean things to him or even deliver what they thought were electric shocks. Afterwards, the subjects tended to derogate their victim, as if to convince themselves that he deserved his mistreatment – although they knew he wasn’t being punished for any wrongdoing and, aside from that, knew only what you can learn about a person by briefly mistreating him in a laboratory setting. But when subjects delivered “shocks” to someone after being told he would get to retaliate by shocking them later, they tended not to derogate him. It is as if the mind were programmed with a simple rule: so long as accounts are settled, no special rationalization is in order; the symmetry of exchange is sufficient defense of your behavior. But if you cheat or abuse another person who doesn’t cheat or abuse you, you should concoct reasons why he deserved it. Either way, you’ll be prepared to defend your behavior if challenged; either way, you’ll be prepared to fight with indignation any allegations that you’re a bad person, or a person unworthy of trust.

Our repertoire of moral excuses is large. Psychologists have found that people justify their failure to help others by minimizing, variously, the person’s plight (“That’s not an assault, it’s a lover’s quarrel”), their own responsibility for the plight, and their own competence to help.

It’s always hard to be sure that people really believe such excuses. But a famous series of experiments shows (in a quite different context) how oblivious the conscious mind can be to its real motivations, and how busily it sets about justifying the products of that motivation.

The experiments were conducted on “split-brain” patients – people who have had the link between the left and right hemispheres cut to stop severe epileptic seizures. The surgery has surprisingly little effect on everyday behavior, but under contrived conditions, strange things can happen. If the word nut is flashed onto the left half of the visual field (which is processed by the right hemisphere), but not onto the right half (processed by the left hemisphere), the subject reports the conscious awareness of the signal; the information never enters the left hemisphere, which in most people controls language and seems to dominate consciousness. Meanwhile, though, the subject’s left hand – controlled by the right hemisphere – will, if allowed to rummage through a box of objects, seize on a nut. The subject reports no awareness of this fact unless allowed to see what his left hand is up to.

When it comes time for the subject to justify his behavior, the left brain passes from professed ignorance into unknowing dishonesty. One example: the command walk is sent to a man’s right brain, and he complies. When asked where he’s going, his left
brain, not privy to the real reason, comes up with another one: he’s going to get a soda, he says, convinced. Another example: a nude image is flashed to the right brain of a woman, who then lets loose an embarrassed laugh. Asked what’s so funny, she gives an answer that’s less racy than the truth.

Michael Gazzaniga, who conducted some of the split-brain experiments, has said that language is merely the “press-agent” for other parts of the mind; it justifies whatever acts they induce, convincing the world that the actor is reasonable, rational, upstanding person. It may be that the realm of consciousness itself is in large part such a press agent – the place where our unconsciously written press releases are infused with the conviction that gives them force. Consciousness cloaks the cold and self-serving logic of the genes in a variety of innocent guises. The Darwinian anthropologist Jerome Barkow has written, “It is possible to argue that the primary evolutionary function of the self is to be the organ of impression management (rather than, as our folk psychology would have it, a decision-maker.)”

One could go further and suggest that the folk psychology itself is built into our genes. In other word, not only is the feeling that we are “consciously” in control of our behavior an illusion (as is suggested by other neurological experiments as well); it is a purposeful illusion, designed by natural selection to lend conviction to our claims. For centuries people have approached the philosophical debate over free will with the vague but powerful intuition that free will does exist; we (the conscious we) are in charge of our behavior. It is not beyond the pale to suggest that this nontrivial chunk of intellectual history can be ascribed fairly directly to natural selection – that one of the most hallowed of all philosophical positions is essentially an adaptation.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_moksha
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Post by _moksha »

The Dude wrote: Steve could not take being proved wrong. He went on a hunt for me and started a thread or two aimed at intimidating me. Several people told him he was being childish, but there was no stopping him. This was right after he was feeling all high and mighty for snooping out the real identity of John Llynch, so it seemed nothing could stop his bullying attitude, and I got the same kind of treatment so many others have received.

And why the hell was he saying such crazy things in favor of BYU? Who knows. Maybe he's an apologist himself.

Perhaps there is something in the Benson gene pool that causes them to ferret out commu...er um...apologists.
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_Calculus Crusader
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Post by _Calculus Crusader »

Steve Benson is infatuated with his own thoughts. As for RfM as a whole, the place peaked from 1998-1999 (in my opinion) and has declined to the extent that now it is something of a cesspool.
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_Mercury
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Post by _Mercury »

Calculus Crusader wrote:Steve Benson is infatuated with his own thoughts. As for RfM as a whole, the place peaked from 1998-1999 (in my opinion) and has declined to the extent that now it is something of a cesspool.


Is it anyone else's impression that RFM is a promotion machine for a handful of "chosen"?
And crawling on the planet's face
Some insects called the human race
Lost in time
And lost in space...and meaning
_Bond...James Bond
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Post by _Bond...James Bond »

VegasRefugee wrote:
Calculus Crusader wrote:Steve Benson is infatuated with his own thoughts. As for RfM as a whole, the place peaked from 1998-1999 (in my opinion) and has declined to the extent that now it is something of a cesspool.


Is it anyone else's impression that RFM is a promotion machine for a handful of "chosen"?


Pretty much. There are some good posters, but a few (Benson) use it as their own personal forum. It still is useful though for people just realizing Mormonism is false though.
Last edited by QuestionEverything on Sat Feb 03, 2007 6:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Whatever appears to be against the Book of Mormon is going to be overturned at some time in the future. So we can be pretty open minded."-charity 3/7/07
_marg

Post by _marg »

beastie wrote:Dan went onto RFM a while ago (I can't remember how long ago, but I think it's been at least six months or longer) to talk about his Pious Fraud theory and had a very rough reception, then, as well. I lurk somewhat regularly on RFM but I don't really have emotional "needs" in regards to my Mormon exodus, and only post when certain topics interest me - like the Book of Mormon or Pious Fraud. So I jumped into the fray in an attempt to convince RFMers to at least be willing to consider Dan's theory. There were a few others who supported him or at least objected to the "gang bang" back then, too.


Beastie, what I remember is people arguing against the "pious fraud" theory, not people jumping on Vogel as a person. The fact that someone argues against an idea such as "pious fraud" regarding Smith does not mean they haven't considered it. You seem to refuse to accept that people can rightly criticize the Smith "pious fraud" idea.


However, this time was much worse, and, in my opinion, it's due to Benson's involvement. He escalated the tone of personal derision and attack. And he just would not stop. Cabbie behaved very poorly last time, but finally had enough sense to withdraw from the conversation. Frankly, I was quite disappointed with Benson, having followed his story with interest. I had never interacted with him directly before, so was unprepared for his behavior.


You are not innocent Beastie. I went and looked at the RFM board. Jan 21 you started a thread "New Religious Movement Leaders (related to pious fraud)." Essentially it was an attempt at presenting evidence (a quote taken from an FBI site) to be used in support of the Smith "Pious Fraud" theory.

Benson (only one of the responders to your post) responded with "Smith was an irreligious and insincere reprobate, anything but personally pious and everything fraudulent. New Testament "

And what was YOUR response to his post Beastie? subject: So Says Benson!!
content: All bow your heads and say "yes".


He has a right to an opinion. But you are attacking him personally and in doing so it is YOU who is escalating that discussion into personal attack and derision. It didn't develop much further, but it could have.
_marg

Post by _marg »

Jersey Girl wrote:

I wanted so badly to counter with a definition from an online Urban Dictionary of

"attention slut."

That's how he came off to me. Someone cravenly seeking attention no matter how pathetically embarrassing his actions/words were. "Look at me! Look at me!"

That's my impression of Steve Benson.


Gosh Jersey girl, that's my impression of you. My impression of Steve is that he's intelligent, extremely logical and articulate. It's amazing how perceptions can differ.
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