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Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 7:44 pm
by _Mercury
Coggins7 wrote:Question: Why don't you get a life Sono and cease and desist with this kind of witless, confrontational gibberish. The Church is all about life, and the glorious and wonderful fact that life is the fundamental fact of the universe. No one actually ever "dies" in any ultimate sense (and nobody goes to Valhalla and orders a beer from a half naked Valkyrie) and a funeral (an event marking a major and important transitionary phase in our eternal progression) is a perfect time to bring that fact to remembrance. I thought Vegas and PP were the kings of just plain flat footedly dumb commentary upon the Church and the philosophical orientation of its faithful members but you've moved to the head of the class (Whoknows is a close second for vacuous pop-Atheist anti-religion rhetoric lifted from old Madalyn Murry O' Hair appearances on Phil Donahue, but lets not quibble here). Reaching out to people at their lowest point and focusing their minds on the church with its blessings, promises, and ordinances of sealing are precisely the point you ninny.

How on earth much rocket science is necessary with these people???

Loran


No, MormonCorp is about getting individuals to bend and break in the face of obviously ludicrous claims. Implementing the same droning on and on about HIGHLY unlikely post-death scenarios is precisely what Hito, PP and myself are arguing against.

Your inability to take our claims (held by the majority of humans) seriously makes you look like an ass. Defending your counter claims makes you look like an even bigger ass.

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 7:47 pm
by _Yoda
Coggins7 wrote:Question: Why don't you get a life Sono and cease and desist with this kind of witless, confrontational gibberish. The Church is all about life, and the glorious and wonderful fact that life is the fundamental fact of the universe. No one actually ever "dies" in any ultimate sense (and nobody goes to Valhalla and orders a beer from a half naked Valkyrie) and a funeral (an event marking a major and important transitionary phase in our eternal progression) is a perfect time to bring that fact to remembrance. I thought Vegas and PP were the kings of just plain flat footedly dumb commentary upon the Church and the philosophical orientation of its faithful members but you've moved to the head of the class (Whoknows is a close second for vacuous pop-Atheist anti-religion rhetoric lifted from old Madalyn Murry O' Hair appearances on Phil Donahue, but lets not quibble here). Reaching out to people at their lowest point and focusing their minds on the church with its blessings, promises, and ordinances of sealing are precisely the point you ninny.

How on earth much rocket science is necessary with these people???

Loran


You see.....this is the type of non-Christian, insensitive attitude that makes it an embarassment to note that we belong to the same Church.

Loran....GROW UP!

Sono was proposing a sincere question.

Here is a sincere answer to that question, Sono.

In all of the LDS funerals I have attended, and have helped plan, there has been a balance. There is a eulogy, normally given by a family member. Sometimes an additional talk by a family member is given. Often there is a musical number. There is also a talk given by a Bishop or Stake President about the Plan of Salvation, and how our earthly life is only a small part of the large life in front of us.

See how easy it can be to be civil, Loran? You should try it sometime.

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 7:55 pm
by _Mercury
liz3564 wrote:You see.....this is the type of non-Christian, insensitive attitude that makes it an embarassment to note that we belong to the same Church.

Loran....GROW UP!

Sono was proposing a sincere question.

Here is a sincere answer to that question, Sono.

In all of the LDS funerals I have attended, and have helped plan, there has been a balance. There is a eulogy, normally given by a family member. Sometimes an additional talk by a family member is given. Often there is a musical number. There is also a talk given by a Bishop or Stake President about the Plan of Salvation, and how our earthly life is only a small part of the large life in front of us.

See how easy it can be to be civil, Loran? You should try it sometime.


I'm to blame for his bile. He just can't help making a jackass of himself if he knows im involved in a thread.

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 8:27 pm
by _Coggins7
You see.....this is the type of non-Christian, insensitive attitude that makes it an embarassment to note that we belong to the same Church.

Loran....GROW UP!

Sono was proposing a sincere question.

Here is a sincere answer to that question, Sono.

In all of the LDS funerals I have attended, and have helped plan, there has been a balance. There is a eulogy, normally given by a family member. Sometimes an additional talk by a family member is given. Often there is a musical number. There is also a talk given by a Bishop or Stake President about the Plan of Salvation, and how our earthly life is only a small part of the large life in front of us.

See how easy it can be to be civil, Loran? You should try it sometime.


Liz, GET SERIOUS and cut with the moral finger wagging. Its getting very old very fast. I understand that your cafateria Mormon attitude toward the church allows you to feel free to make common cause with apostates and critics of the church against those of us who accept the entire reavealed system and are willing to support and defend it (as it isn't our church and hence, not our cafateria) and wag fingers of moral sanctimony at others when they return fire on people like Sono once patience has finially been exhausted. You inability (or unwillingness) to see that Sono's question was neither sincere or intellectually serious is somewhat telling, frankly.

And your response, while civil, does nothing to cut to the heart of the matter. As I said in my post above, the church is about life, and life; existence qua existence, is the fundamental reality in the universe. We exist, we have always existed, and will, at some level of existence, always exist. A funeral is precisely the time in which we need to be reminded of the truths of the gospel (one of which is tha death is a transition to another state of existence, not the extinguishing of existence in any ontological sense, and hence, somewhat illusory) and the promises of the gospel through the Atonement and ordinances of the Holy Temple.

When someone dies in their sins, that is a tragedy, but dying itself is nothing more than a step through a doorway into another level or plane of existence in which life continues. We can, through the ordinances and principles of the gospel, be reunited eternally as families and with those relationships intact in an eternal sense under eternal law. Eternal life becomes eteranal lives, and the separation of death becomes only a hiatus, a sabbatical from the earthly relationships we knew while in moretality. There is no permanant separation nor need the divinely sanctioned relationships of husband and wife, son, daughter, brother, or sister, end with mortality.

Now, the very idea that Sono doesn't understand the relevance of general gospel doctrine to a funeral, and to the death of loved ones, is disingenuous. The doctrines of the Gospel are intended to comfort us under such circumstances. The death of someone who has lived a good life and followed the teachings of Christ to the best of his or her ability is not tragic nor is it even the sad and wrenching thing it is in the world. My own Mother's funeral would be a textbook case in point here.


What we had there was a mini-General Conference, not a "funeral' as normally understood. It was one of the most spiritually energinzing and profound experiences I've ever had in a church service of any kind. I don't expect Sono to understand that, but I do expect some degree of common sense when dealing with the Church, and Christianity in genreal. These doctrines are here to take the "sting" out of the grave, precisely. I do expect you to understand that, however.

At least at this juncture.

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 8:38 pm
by _Yoda
Liz, GET SERIOUS and cut with the moral finger wagging. Its getting very old very fast.


What's getting old very fast are your childish tirades. Take a chill pill.

I understand exactly what you're saying, Loran, and agree with you as far as your points of doctrine are concerned.

All I'm saying is that there is also room at a funeral to talk about the person who died, and pay respect to that person. There is nothing wrong with that, and it is done at LDS funerals all the time. I gave the eulogy and sang at my grandmother's funeral. My husband delivered the eulogy at my 12 year old niece's funeral.

This is as much MY church as it is yours, Loran, like it or not, so move over or get off the bench!

I would like to know why you feel that Sono's question was disingenuous. Also....even if his question WAS disingenuous, why is it necessary to be nasty to him?

Haven't you ever heard of leading by example?

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 8:55 pm
by _Coggins7
This is as much MY church as it is yours, Loran, like it or not, so move over or get off the bench!



Incorrect on both counts. The chuch is Jesus Christ's, and neither mine or yours, except in the purely psychological manner of feeling a sense of belonging to it as a community and culture. But "cultural Mormons" who have little or no belieft in its principles or the veracity of its leaders can have as much, in a social or psychological sense as well.

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 9:04 pm
by _Yoda
Coggins7 wrote: But "cultural Mormons" who have little or no belieft in its principles or the veracity of its leaders can have as much, in a social or psychological sense as well.


Who are you to make a judgement call on what I believe or don't believe?

When have I stated that I don't believe in the principles of Jesus Christ?

After everything you have been through, Coggins, with overcoming your addictions, etc., how can you be so uncharitable and cutting to others? I don't understand it. I really don't.

You just don't get it. It's not the message that I disagree with. It's the way the message is being presented.

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 9:11 pm
by _Coggins7
Who are you to make a judgement call on what I believe or don't believe?

When have I stated that I don't believe in the principles of Jesus Christ?

After everything you have been through, Coggins, with overcoming your addictions, etc., how can you be so uncharitable and cutting to others? I don't understand it. I really don't.

You just don't get it. It's not the message that I disagree with. It's the way the message is being presented.


Interesting. So are you now admitting to being a "cultural Mormon", that is, a Mormon in name only? I made no judgement or claim about what you believed, nor did I say that you did not believe in Jesus Christ. Where did I make those statements please? I stated the plain truth of the matter: the Church is not yours or mine but Christ's It therefore, cannot be conceived of as a cafateria but only as the "bread of life"; the basic staple of nourishment for which there is no substitute and neither alternate forms of nourishment nor parts of the bread we can take or leave (eating the center but leaving the crust).

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 9:22 pm
by _Who Knows
Coggins7 wrote:I stated the plain truth of the matter: the Church is not yours or mine but Christ's It therefore, cannot be conceived of as a cafateria but only as the "bread of life"; the basic staple of nourishment for which there is no substitute and neither alternate forms of nourishment nor parts of the bread we can take or leave (eating the center but leaving the crust).


Unless I'm mistaken, Christ isn't here telling people what his church IS. Men are.

Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 9:28 pm
by _Jason Bourne
This is as much MY church as it is yours, Loran, like it or not, so move over or get off the bench!


No it is not. I belongs to the monolithic Mormons. You and I , we are just damned hypocrites!!!!