Homosexuals Honour Spong...

[_Gazelam]

How about this: "Romans 1:21-32 is wrong".

Your eloquence is overwhelming. that's the greatest comeback I have heard in 25 years. Only surpassed by Billy Dixons grand retort of '83. Commonly refered to in hushed tones as the "I'm rubber, your glue. Whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you." grand slam of reasoning.

Thnk you sir for your efforts.

Gaz

[_Lucretia MacEvil]

How about this: "Romans 1:21-32 is wrong".

Your eloquence is overwhelming. that's the greatest comeback I have heard in 25 years. Only surpassed by Billy Dixons grand retort of '83. Commonly refered to in hushed tones as the "I'm rubber, your glue. Whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you." grand slam of reasoning.

Thnk you sir for your efforts.

Gaz

For those of us who don't have the Bible memorized, what does Romans 1:21-32 say?

[_Gazelam]

Romans 1:21-32

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

[_Tarski]

How about this: "Romans 1:21-32 is wrong".

Your eloquence is overwhelming. that's the greatest comeback I have heard in 25 years. Only surpassed by Billy Dixons grand retort of '83. Commonly refered to in hushed tones as the "I'm rubber, your glue. Whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you." grand slam of reasoning.

Thnk you sir for your efforts.

Gaz

I am sure you would have no problem going for this simple (and true) explanation if I asked about a troublesome passage from the Bhagavad gita. Sometimes its the simple explanation that is best. Why should I avoid a perfectly good and simple explanation?
By the way, it only one verse in there that is in question.

[_moksha]

Strangely, the one constant we can truly count on is change, and that even applies within the LDS Church. Unfortunately, we have in the past been on the tail end of social progress and it will undoubtedly the case again this time - doesn't matter if we are pushed screaming and kicking into the 21th Century, we will adapt and change with the times. While some members will feel wedded to the repression of women and homosexuals as being at the cornerstone of their belief system, members after the change will no doubt readily embrace and defend it.

As things stand currently perhaps we could surmise that Women and Homosexuals were both the children of Ham (Chitterlings and Menudo?) and were less valiant in the pre-existence. In the future, they will take on more pleasing attributes no doubt.

[_Lucretia MacEvil]

Romans 1:21-32

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Sounds like Paul was having a bad day ... judgmental and likely guilt-ridden over his own same sex attraction. I have to agree that it's wrong. "God gave them up, God gave them over" ... that's a god made in man's image.

[_Gazelam]

"God gave them up, God gave them over" ... that's a god made in man's image.

This si to be interpreted : "God did not bar their way"

Free agency is esential to the plan of salvation. Abuse of this brings damnation. A stop in their progression. One hopes it is not permanent.

[_Jersey Girl]

Gaz,

I'm curious what you think the following means:


26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

Also, do you think the portion of Romans that you quoted is directed at any one group or what?

Yes, that's a trick question.

Jersey Girl

[_Jersey Girl]

The LDS church could easily create a church of equality if the brethren wanted.

One puts the sexism, homophobia, racism behind, gets a new revelation, and moves on.

A few nicely worded statements and the church is good to go...

We weren't ready to have women considered equal,
We weren't ready to have gay and lesbian people a part of the community,
We don't know why God's timing is as it is,
God's ways are not Human's ways,
God never said there would not be a time when all are embraced and treated equally,
We are a church of further light and knowledge,
We praise God for changing the out-dated rules,
We rejoice in the restoration of all things,
Etc. etc. etc.

It will happen... about fifty years after mainstream society!

:-)

~dancer~

Nice post Roger~

You're talking about destroying what I consider to be one of the key beliefs of the LDS faith. Utah gave women the vote early. Lorenzo Snow in 1900 said that he wasn't sure if the Priesthood ban was revelation or tradition. Those changes would have nothing on this one.

Some changes I can see happening and in fact expect:

Women getting the Priesthood
The Return of a form of Consecration

Neither of these would change the underlying theology.

Moving Eternal Marriage out of place and denying the attached principles will make me walk unless an angel comes down and confirms this and explains a lot of things. Even then I will stick out my hand and say, "Put her there pal."

The part I bolded, Nehor. Why do you think that Utah gave women the vote early?

Jersey Girl

[_Gazelam]

Gaz,

I'm curious what you think the following means:


26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

Also, do you think the portion of Romans that you quoted is directed at any one group or what?

Yes, that's a trick question.

Jersey Girl

I think that verse simply states that the women were having sex outside the bonds of marriage. I think that includes Lesbianism.

The whole section is stating that despite the true church being present, and despite their having an understanding of the gospel, people can be led away to act in unrighteousness and wickedness. They delude themselves through temporal logic and obscene justifications

There are trials we pass through simply by being born and living life. When we accept the gospel and enter into covenants with God, we are held to a higher standard by God, and increase our being a target to Satan and his devils who prick our mortal hearts with wicked passions. It occured in the days of Noah, and many were led away soon after the death of Father Adam. One of the appeals of visiting the descendants of Cain in the cities on the plains were the music and orgies, many being drawn away from the villages of the people of God to sin in the city below.