Polygamy Porter wrote:A very common question that I was asked by both friends as well as seminary and church teachers was "If someone put a gun to your head and asked if you were a Mormon, and told you if you said yes they would kill you, how would you answer?"
Anything short of "I would proudly tell him that I am a Mormon!!" was not acceptable.
I could see friends asking this kind of thing but seminary and church teachers? That's a little f***** up....
Yep. I grew up just north of Salt Lake. It was common while they recited the stories of Mormons being killed for admitting they were Mormons...
Runtu wrote:.. I'm not sure I would have blown myself up and killed other people, but I think I probably would have been willing to do everything but that. And hell, if I'm honest with myself, I trusted my mission president so completely I would have at least prayed about it if he'd asked me to blow myself up.
People seem to think that Tal was after shock value...
Yes it was a "shocking" statement. It was a shock that at least one missionary could potentially have that level of blind commitment.
What I found even more profound was this statement that was directed toward parents with missionary age children: "It might be the best thing ever invented, but if it's invented, it's not worth dieing for"
Thanks for that statement, Tal (notice how I didn't use the word "appreciate")
I watched it with my family and there were varying reactions. My RM son of a few months identified with it, my son that is praying about whether to put in his papers in a few months is now seeing things from more than one perspective and was very disturbed in a positive way. There were other reactions along church party lines as well, like "what a jerk, my seminary teacher says it's all lies and crap etc." Everything takes time.
Last edited by Guest on Mon Jun 25, 2007 5:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
SInce you did not serve I will discount your opinion on this.
A very common question that I was asked by both friends as well as seminary and church teachers was "If someone put a gun to your head and asked if you were a Mormon, and told you if you said yes they would kill you, how would you answer?"
Anything short of "I would proudly tell him that I am a Mormon!!" was not acceptable.
While I never ever have a had a church teacher ask this the concept is quite different from becoming a suicide bomber.
Runtu wrote:I've thought a lot about this statement of Tal's. In fact I recall talking with Tal about what we would have been willing to do about a year or so ago. I'm not sure I would have blown myself up and killed other people, but I think I probably would have been willing to do everything but that. And hell, if I'm honest with myself, I trusted my mission president so completely I would have at least prayed about it if he'd asked me to blow myself up.
People seem to think that Tal was after shock value. I don't think so. And I think we all know at least some people who would, if asked, blow themselves up. Of course, maybe I'm just looking for shock value too.
Well we will have to disagree on this one. Tal is not stupid and well this one kind of makes him look stupid. There are plenty of gripes and issues for him to beat on but this one just seemed as noted for shock value at least to me.
Runtu wrote:I've thought a lot about this statement of Tal's. In fact I recall talking with Tal about what we would have been willing to do about a year or so ago. I'm not sure I would have blown myself up and killed other people, but I think I probably would have been willing to do everything but that. And hell, if I'm honest with myself, I trusted my mission president so completely I would have at least prayed about it if he'd asked me to blow myself up.
People seem to think that Tal was after shock value. I don't think so. And I think we all know at least some people who would, if asked, blow themselves up. Of course, maybe I'm just looking for shock value too.
Well we will have to disagree on this one. Tal is not stupid and well this one kind of makes him look stupid. There are plenty of gripes and issues for him to beat on but this one just seemed as noted for shock value at least to me.
I didn't think the comment made him look stupid. The comment was shocking but he made a good point. The indoctrination and extreme conditions these young boys go through on their missions (third world countries esp.) could easily create that level of devotion. I have heard that in the MTC the young men were made to feel so unworthy and guilty that they would go running to confess the silliest transgressions. When returning from their missions, they go through more culture shock than when they entered the third world country. Haivng lived such a structured life of obedience and loyalty to the church, it is harder for them to enter the real world again than to leave it. The fanaticism that religion breeds seems to be more prevelant in faiths that claim to be "true." When I read some portions of my DH's missionary journal, I was struck at the level of devotion and his infallible beliefs in the church.
I don't know if he would have obeyed a command from the mission pres. or Prophet to blow himself up, but he certainly would have given his life for the church.
Tal's example strikes a nerve because deep down I believe Mormons can see the parallels between Islamic fanatics and Mormonism. They believe it was commanded by God when Old Testament Prophets murdered women and children in God's name, Mormons covenant to give their life and avenge the blood of the Prophet, penalties/signs to disembowel and slit ones throat, blood atonement doctrine, MMM, polyandry/polygny, etc. are all examples of the harm having the 'true" religion can cause and the level of devotion to the church LDS are willing to accept as Godly. Why would blowing up oneself be any different?
"Happiness is the object and design of our existence... That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another." Joseph Smith
Tal Bachman wrote:Ray - STOP with the gay stuff, okay? We had enough on the DCP thread. It's embarrassing. Is that what you do, scan the internet checking guys out?
Shameful.
Maybe you would inspire less gay stuff if you didn't post in large, colored font.
I distinctly remember in a zone conference my mission president (Carlos Agüero, Argentina Bs. As. South, 1990) said that after we went through the temple, we no longer had free agency. He said that the temple workers weren’t armed with white Uzis and didn’t force us to make those covenants. He said that once we made sacred covenants by our own free will in the temple to obey God to give our time, talents, energy, and our very own lives, if necessary, to the building up of the Church, our free agency was gone; we had to do everything that God said. He further told us that he was in total obedience to God; his decisions were God’s decisions; his will was God’s will; his rules were God’s rules; his commands were God’s commands. We were to obey him as if he were God, for as God himself said, whether by my own voice or the voice of my servants, it is the same.
We were never told to obey contingent on our own moral compass agreeing with the commandment. If you don’t know why you were commanded to do something, obey it and then you’ll eventually figure out why. Adam didn’t know why God commanded him to kill innocent animals. But he did it anyway. When the angel asked him why he went about killing, he said, "I know not, save the Lord commanded me." Additionally, Abraham intending to kill his son and Nephi killing Laban were also examples that were repeatedly used to illustrate correct actions to take when we were commanded to do anything.
Getting back to what Tal said, the example of being commanded to blow yourself up is hypothetical—mission presidents don’t command you to do that. However, you are clearly and unambiguously commanded to obey—no exceptions. If the church can use examples of Adam, Abraham, and Nephi being commanded to kill to emphasize the absolute nature of the law of obedience, I think Tal is completely justified to use hypothetical commandments to kill to emphasize his willingness to obey.
It’s relatively easy to agree that only Homo sapiens can speak about things that don’t really exist, and believe six impossible things before breakfast. You could never convince a monkey to give you a banana by promising him limitless bananas after death in monkey heaven.
Analytics wrote:Getting back to what Tal said, the example of being commanded to blow yourself up is hypothetical—mission presidents don’t command you to do that. However, you are clearly and unambiguously commanded to obey—no exceptions. If the church can use examples of Adam, Abraham, and Nephi being commanded to kill to emphasize the absolute nature of the law of obedience, I think Tal is completely justified to use hypothetical commandments to kill to emphasize his willingness to obey.
Exactly. I took it as "What's the worst thing imaginable? Whatever it is, if a high leader of the church (In other words God) told me to do it, I would - that's how committed and obedient I am."
WK: "Joseph Smith asserted that the Book of Mormon peoples were the original inhabitants of the americas"
Will Schryver: "No, he didn’t." 3/19/08
Still waiting for Will to back this up...
Analytics wrote:Getting back to what Tal said, the example of being commanded to blow yourself up is hypothetical—mission presidents don’t command you to do that. However, you are clearly and unambiguously commanded to obey—no exceptions. If the church can use examples of Adam, Abraham, and Nephi being commanded to kill to emphasize the absolute nature of the law of obedience, I think Tal is completely justified to use hypothetical commandments to kill to emphasize his willingness to obey.
Exactly. I took it as "What's the worst thing imaginable? Whatever it is, if a high leader of the church (In other words God) told me to do it, I would - that's how committed and obedient I am."
Yep, and the only reason it's "over the top" for certain members is that they don't really like to be confronted with the true implications of their religion.
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.