Does the teaching method in LDS Primary equal brainwashing?

[_Jason Bourne]

WK, how are the words to these songs any different than hundreds of songs written by various religious composers sung throughout the world?

As a teacher and a student of music, I fail to see the difference.

Because you're forcing agnostic kids to sing something over and over and over, beginning at the age of 18 months basically. You're making them grow up thinking the only way they can be happy, is by doing what the church/prophet says. You're making them grow up thinking that the only way they'll please their families is by doing what the church/prophet says. You're ingraining the LDS belief into their young, impressionable minds. You're teaching them that they 'know' certain things, which they obviously do not.

You really don't see it? (I agree that it's a problem with all religion, not just LDS).

So what do you teach your kids and how?

[_Sethbag]

I appreciate what you're saying, Tarski, but I think your beef should be with ANY organized religion, and not just the LDS Church.

I'll let Tarski answer for himself, but as for me, I don't disagree with you one bit. I don't think anyone in this thread is saying that the LDS church is more cult-like than all the other churches out there. They're just saying it's cult-like and brainwashing kids. This doesn't mean the other churches out there, in their own ways, don't also do the same thing. That's why I, personally, am a big fan of Richard Dawkins. He's not anti-mormon specifically - he's anti-religion, and I agree with his conclusion that religion is a virus of the mind. It's true of all religions, and certainly true of the LDS one. I think this is your exclusivity training kicking in. The church doesn't have to be exclusively false, as it claims to be exclusively true. A lot of churches claim exclusive truth, but they are altogether false.

If you attend a Sunday School class in another Church, the kids are going to participate, and they are going to be taught things about that religion. And you're right. These kids don't have the ability to decipher things for themselves at a young age. That's what their parents are for. The parents have to decide what type of environment to raise their children in. It's also important for the parents to dialogue with kids beyond Sunday School, Primary, school, any type of organization where the kids are out of that parent's immediate care. As a parent, you have a responsibility to be involved in that organization. Come sit in the back of the room, or sit with your child's class. Be involved! If you don't like what's happening, change it, or yank them out.

Sorry for the rant. It's not directed at you. It's directed at parents in general.

I lament that parents afflicted with the religious mind virus almost inevitably pass that virus on to their offspring. And the offspring are often so ready for it, as well, being inexperienced and impressionable, and as Dawkins says, built with an evolved susceptibility to believing what their parents tell them.

Thank heavens it's not universally incurable, and just as some percentage of people afflicted with even the worst viruses, like ebola, manage to overcome it and survive, some percentage of children even from LDS-indoctrinating homes will eventually leave the church, as with other religions. These "survivors" aren't proof that the church isn't like a virus though - the survivors are proof that the virus isn't invincible, and can be beaten.

[_Who Knows]

In all the FT meetings I have been in I may see on kid get up, maybe two and over the past number of years rarely any. The LDS leaders actually have discouraged small children bearing testimonies in FT meetings. But there is never a mass rush of children to bear testimony. Again PP is simply lying.

Really? Do you not have a lot of young kids in your ward?

Every fast sunday in my ward, there is at least 3 or 4, sometimes more. The moment one kid gets up, it triggers a few more to follow suit.

Another trendy thing to do is for the parents to go up with a kid, and the kid goes first, and then the parent goes. Half the time the kid chickens out, so the parent will have to whisper into their ears.

[_Tarski]

The lyrics are full of mother goose nonsense and demands for conformity and the relinguishing of ethical, moral and life-meaning decision-making responsibility to a universal leader "the prophet". The more I think about it, the more I hate it!

Yeah, the whole world should just follow the cosmic decrees of one old white dude---riiiiight.

PS, "That's what Jonah learned deep down inside the whale." ???????????

My point is that the lyrics reflect Old Testament prophets which you will be taught about in any Christian religion.

Again, I understand where you're coming from, but I think your beef is, or should be, more with organized religion in general, based on how you view things, than the Mormon Church, in particular. In the ways you have mentioned, I don't think that the LDS Church is any worse than other churches in teaching gospel principles to children. Again, I am a firm believer that it is a parent's responsibility to stay involved in what their kids are being taught....and...intervene if necessary.

In other words, other religion is just as full of it too? What kind of defense is that?

Let's replace religious indoctrination with an ethics of curiostity, exploration, objectivity, principled skepticsim, broad education and independent thought.

Another idea. If we have to teach religion, then lets teach the main principles of every main religion (and objections like secularist ideas) to our kids and then let them decide. Every kid should know about the wild variety of relgions out there and that no matter what relgion they choose, most people will believe in a different one (with no better evidence).

[_Who Knows]

So what do you teach your kids and how?

Well, right now, I'm just trying to teach them to think. They still go to church every sunday (since my wife is still fully active). So when they get home, I basically just quiz them a little bit. Ask them what they learned about. And then I'll ask them if they agree. And then I'll ask them why. And then I'll ask them about potential issues with what they've been taught - other ways of seeing it.

Of course I do this all in a light/fun manner. My goal isn't to prove what they've learned is wrong. My goal is to get them to think about it, instead of just taking it into their brains, and letting it sit there - as if it were a fact.

I teach them to be respectful. I teach them to be loving. I teach them to be honest. I teach them to be responsible. I teach them to have fun, and enjoy life. Mostly through my own example (how i treat them, how i treat my wife, how i treat our extended family, etc.) Of course the oldest is only 7, so there's not a whole lot i can TELL them. And of course, I'm not always successful. ;)

[_Yoda]

In other words, other religion is just as full of it too?

Yes.

What kind of defense is that?

It's not a defense, merely an observation.

Let's replace religious indoctrination with an ethics of curiosity, exploration, objectivity, principled skepticism, broad education and independent thought.

Another idea. If we have to teach religion, then lets teach the main principles of every main religion (and objections like secularist ideas) to our kids and then let them decide. Every kid should know about the wild variety of religions out there and that no matter what religion they choose, most people will believe in a different one (with no better evidence).

That's a great idea. And I hope that you raise your kids that way.

But is this not a free country, born on the values of freedom of religion?

If parents choose to raise their children in a certain religion, they are free to do so.

What I think is important, is, as a parent, to stop and think outside the box as you have suggested.

[_Yoda]

Well, right now, I'm just trying to teach them to think. They still go to church every sunday (since my wife is still fully active). So when they get home, I basically just quiz them a little bit. Ask them what they learned about. And then I'll ask them if they agree. And then I'll ask them why. And then I'll ask them about potential issues with what they've been taught - other ways of seeing it.

Of course I do this all in a light/fun manner. My goal isn't to prove what they've learned is wrong. My goal is to get them to think about it, instead of just taking it into their brains, and letting it sit there - as if it were a fact.

I teach them to be respectful. I teach them to be loving. I teach them to be honest. I teach them to be responsible. I teach them to have fun, and enjoy life. Mostly through my own example (how I treat them, how I treat my wife, how I treat our extended family, etc.) Of course the oldest is only 7, so there's not a whole lot I can TELL them. And of course, I'm not always successful. ;)

And that's exactly what you should be doing. You're a good Dad.

:)

[_harmony]

Some comments:

1. Brainwashing cannot be done to a child. Why? Because brainwashing(also known as thought reform or re-education) consists of any systematic effort aimed at instilling certain attitudes and beliefs in a person against his will, usually beliefs in conflict with the person's prior beliefs and knowledge. (from Wiki)

Children have no prior beliefs. Primary teaches; it does not re-teach.

2. A primary segment of brainwashing is the "against his will" part. Primary never teaches anyone "against their will". Children are incapable of having "will" in this sense and legally have no standing, thus no "will". Their parents are the ones with "will" and they choose to put their kids in the seats in the Primary room.

3. The APA has neither accepted nor rejected the concept.

[_barrelomonkeys]

Sorry for the rant. It's not directed at you. It's directed at parents in general.

Liz, I agree with you. Most parents try to indoctrinate their children, if they do so with religion then that's their prerogative.

[_Bond...James Bond]

1. Brainwashing cannot be done to a child. Why? Because brainwashing(also known as thought reform or [b]re-education[b]) consists of any systematic effort aimed at instilling certain attitudes and beliefs in a person against his will, usually beliefs in conflict with the person's prior beliefs and knowledge. (from Wiki)

Children have no prior beliefs. Primary teaches; it does not re-teach.

Could indoctrination be the word used rather than brainwashing?