Modesty & LDS Girls/Women & Sexually Frustrated Men

[_Runtu]

Women talk about men's reaction to the sight of women as if it is the man's fault and can be controlled. Let me state unequivocally that in 90% of the cases it CANNOT be controlled. I can control my actions in reaction to the endorphins rushing into my brain but even then I'm a fuzzy-headed idiot while doing it. Women do have that power and while I agree with the above posters that that alone should NEVER be how a woman defines herself denying the real effects it has on men is foolish.

Elder Oaks was right in that a scantily dressed girl will send thoughts rushing through my brain and unconcious reactions that to be honest I don't want to deal with unless it's going to lead to something more.....the male sex drive has a very hard time accepting the 'go so far and then stop' concept. Modest dress is a gift to guys. The opposite is also true but to a lesser degree.

This is the issue for me. It seems like a lot of people believe that having a normal reaction to an attractive member of the opposite sex is somehow sinful. Hence, The Nehor sees a beautiful woman and is aroused and then feels guilty because he can't "go so far and then stop." The message seems to be that, since men react this way, and such reactions are both sinful and uncontrollable, women should give men the "gift" of modesty.

Why is a natural physiological reaction inherently "bad," and why is it the other person's responsibility to not get you to react that way?

[_truth dancer]

If women want to dress scantily then they should be prepared for admiring looks.

No one is denying that there are girls and women who dress scantily so they will get the attention of men.

The problem is... why do girls care? So what if the form into which they happened to be born gets guys looking at them. It has nothing to do with their value, who they are as a person, their goodness, their spirit, what they can contribute to the worldd, their gifts, talents, personality, the mothering abilities, or anything else.

That's the way it is. IF you (collective) don't want the looks, don't dress the part. Are we supposed to walk around with blinders on? Ridiculous. And, let's be clear here, women don't even have to dress scantily. A shapely woman is going to get looks in MOST anything she wears.

Again, no one is suggesting that girls and women who purposely dress in revealing ways are not wanting the attention. The problem is why do some girls have the sense that their worth is based on how attractive their form is to males.

I hate to break it to you but sexual attractiveness does have value.

Yep... it has value to men for sex. That is about it! (smile) The point of many women is, they want to be treated as having value other than their form and how useful it is to a man.

IT's important, and worthy.

Hmmmm? Important yes, because society has told girls that their worth is in their form, and how useful it is to men.

But to cast aside this part of human interaction is silly.

No one is casting aside human interaction. Many women are wanting women to be valued for something other than their forms.

I'm still trying to figure out what makes a man attractive to a woman, but I know what makes a woman attractive to a man. That should be fostered, nurtured, and cared for. Because sexual attractiveness is important and does have value.

Why? So men can get excited around scantily clad women? So their sex lives are more enjoyable?

You see the point?

:-)

~dancer~

[_Scottie]

The masturbation question may the silliest question in the history of silly questions. All men do it. It is not dirty or sinful. And those who say otherwise have no scriptural evidence to support their claim. I would wager that most women do this as well. I'm way ahead on my trips to Vegas, so I know how to wager.

Since when do you need scriptural backing to make something a commandment???

I know a lot of women that masturbate, but I don't think it's 100% like men.

Not sure I get you here, since I don't know you well. Is this sarcasm? Yeah, for it to be a commandment there should be scriptural support. Anything else should be considered "sound advice." As for this particular topic, I wouldn't even regard masturbation being sinful as "sound advice".

No, not sarcastic. You know how prophets speak as the mouthpiece of God when it suits them, and as personal opinion when it doesn't. There are a lot of so called commandments that LDS adhere to simply because a leader said it. Hell, it doesn't even need to be a prophet. Such as, what exactly does it mean to keep the sabbath holy? Some GA somewhere once said that includes no fun activities. So, in the culture of Mormonism, boating on Sunday is considered a sin.

[Shadrak]

In the breastfeeding thread I was really struck by sailgirl7's comment that women should be respectful of men because they may be turned on by the form of a woman breastfeeding. That struck me as really, really odd. I don't talk for women outside of LDS and can only speak of my own experiences (and by no means am I suggesting I'm the norm) in dealing with men and the way in which they are sexually stimulated. I never felt guilty if a man was excited by me and never felt as though I had done anything harmful to him.

I made a comment that a breast is still a sexual part of a woman's body even if it's exposed to feed a baby.
I don't cover up my breasts because I will feel guilty for exciting a man or ashamed. I just think it's polite if it makes a man uncomfortable and I understand why it would. Nothing about my choice to do that is motivated by a belief that I am harming or corrupting him. Just good manners. It's natural to do many things, but I still shut the door when I go to the bathroom in public.

So. Are LDS women/girls taught that they are somehow responsible for men being stimulated by the sight of them? Does this not create stress for the women that they may have this power to taint the boys or somehow lead them astray? Does this also not create the illusion in the girls/women's mind that they are quite powerful when it comes to all things sexual?

I don't worry about that but my point was that I try to be considerate if it makes men uncomfortable to have my breasts exposed.
I guess in some ways women are all taught that if you dress like a tramp, you are going to provoke negative attention to yourself. I don't believe this is unique to LDS culture though. At what point do we draw the line on what is appropriate sexy clothing and trampy? Today if you go to the beach I would be more modest in my bra and underwear than what most girls are wearing.

I just know as a young woman, and even now, I assume that men can be turned on by me when I walk by them, when I smile at them, or anything else that does it for them. I don't consider their reaction to a female as somehow being my responsibility or concern.

I don't either. I would take it as a compliment! :) When a man flirts with me or smiles at me, it can make my day.
But, if I wear clothes intentionally exposing my breasts or clinging to my a**, then I would expect to get some negative attention.

In your opinion do you think it is healthy that women are told to be modest so that they don't frustrate the boys/men? I'm not advocating that girls wear things that are sexually suggestive necessarily... I'm just thinking about how ANYTHING can be sexually suggestive to somebody. So is it the woman's fault if the man gets turned on?

I believe modesty is a good thing but not because I am ashamed of my body or how men react to me. I dress sexy for myself and my DH but I don't want to share that with all the other men out there. When I see women dressing in a sexually suggestive way, I think it reveals more about them than the man who may get turned on. Women like that are very insecure and enjoy/need the sexual attention.

[_Hoops]

Truth Dancer:

I don't think we disagree, but I will be more clear and let's see.

Girl's shouldn't care if they get admiring glances. While I can't know what that feels like, I would hope that it could be considered as the normal course of events. Not care at all. But to imply that one who values the shape of a woman does not also value their other attributes is to deny the vast majority of men who do exactly that. A women's shape or attractiveness is just one of many parts of the whole.

This is not an either or, in my opinion. All of us gain some sense of value from our attractiveness to others. The vehicle may be our looks, or our sense of humore, our sense of empathy, or whatever. Or, more likely, a combination of several/many.

The value for men is not just in sex, though that is a part of it. I think it is more to do with that men find an attractive capable woman as more complementary to themselves. And I think the other side is true as well.

Assuming, as you say, that this importance has been dictated by society, this does not necessarily make it wrong. But let's say this is true. The form of a woman proclaims much more than sexual capability.

My comment regarding what make a woman attractive to man was more applicable to married folks. Sexual attractiveness within the confines of marriage is important and has value. AGain, and I can not emphasize this enough, men have this responsibility as well - and I suspect we fail at this more often than do women.

[_The Nehor]

This is the issue for me. It seems like a lot of people believe that having a normal reaction to an attractive member of the opposite sex is somehow sinful. Hence, The Nehor sees a beautiful woman and is aroused and then feels guilty because he can't "go so far and then stop." The message seems to be that, since men react this way, and such reactions are both sinful and uncontrollable, women should give men the "gift" of modesty.

Why is a natural physiological reaction inherently "bad," and why is it the other person's responsibility to not get you to react that way?

I don't think the reaction is bad Runtu in and of itself. I do think that it's distracting. I also am very, very annoyed by girls who dress like that and then complain that men act like idiots around them.....well....DUUUUHHHH!!!!

[_sailgirl7]

In the breastfeeding thread I was really struck by sailgirl7's comment that women should be respectful of men because they may be turned on by the form of a woman breastfeeding. That struck me as really, really odd. I don't talk for women outside of LDS and can only speak of my own experiences (and by no means am I suggesting I'm the norm) in dealing with men and the way in which they are sexually stimulated. I never felt guilty if a man was excited by me and never felt as though I had done anything harmful to him.

BOM-

I didn't say that at all- perhaps you are thinking of someone else. My comment was this:

I've nursed all three of my children. With my first, I was always super modest- most of the time leaving the room if others were around. But then I realized how much I was missing out on. So with my other kids I stuck around and just did my best not to draw attention to myself. When I was at church- I used the mother's rooms- but mostly as an excuse to get away from the meetings. Nursing in the movie theater is the best- because it's mostly dark! Nursing at a resturant- now that takes talent! Nursing at the mall in a changing room is always fun. And if I had a dollar for everytime I was nursing in a parking lot in the car.... oh the joys of motherhood! :-)

Edit: I do however believe in being modest in public- just as a sign of respect for myself and others. I don't want to draw negative attention to myself as I am lugging three kids around.

[_truth dancer]

Hi Hoops...

I don't think we disagree, but I will be more clear and let's see.

Ahhh yes, thanks for clarifying! :-)

Girl's shouldn't care if they get admiring glances.

Well... how would you like it if you were a fifteen year old, modestly dressed walking down the street and a bunch of old, dirty, construction workers started gawking, whistling, and yelling some suggestive stuff? How would you feel at rude comments about your body by guys wanting to screw you? An admiring glance is one thing. Reality is another.

While I can't know what that feels like,

No, you cannot. ;-)

I would hope that it could be considered as the normal course of events.

It is and should not be. It is degrading and demeaning.

But to imply that one who values the shape of a woman does not also value their other attributes is to deny the vast majority of men who do exactly that.

I think you are coming from the perspective of a married man who appreciates the sexuality of a wife. :-)

This is a little different than the reality of girls and women being treated as if their value was nothing but their sexual attractiveness to a man which is the message inundating our society.

A women's shape or attractiveness is just one of many parts of the whole.

That is not the message women and girls are given in this society.

This is not an either or, in my opinion. All of us gain some sense of value from our attractiveness to others. The vehicle may be our looks, or our sense of humore, our sense of empathy, or whatever. Or, more likely, a combination of several/many.

Again, it is nice you feel this way. Young women are growing up with a very different reality.

The value for men is not just in sex, though that is a part of it. I think it is more to do with that men find an attractive capable woman as more complementary to themselves. And I think the other side is true as well.

In other words, guys like attractive women. (smile). And for the millions of young girls and women who do not see themselves as attractive, the world is not such a great place.

Assuming, as you say, that this importance has been dictated by society, this does not necessarily make it wrong. But let's say this is true. The form of a woman proclaims much more than sexual capability.

The teaching/belief/doctrine that women are here for the pleasure of man is what has caused the problem. There are millions of folks who belief this is truth. in my opinion, it is a very unhealthy way to exist as a society and as a human species.

My comment regarding what make a woman attractive to man was more applicable to married folks. Sexual attractiveness within the confines of marriage is important and has value. AGain, and I can not emphasize this enough, men have this responsibility as well - and I suspect we fail at this more often than do women.

This I agree with. Absolutely! :-)

~dancer~

[_Seven]

The whole thing is backwards to me.

I think it appropriate for women to dress respectfully not because they are to blame for the thoughts of a guy but because I think it is a about time women and girls value themselves for something other than how sexually attractive they are to men.

After six thousand years of women being valued for their form, their worth equal to their bodies, I would hope we could move to a place where women are seen (by themselves as well as by men), as human beings, with thoughts, ideas, understanding, value, and creativity, who can contribute to the world in ways beside getting a guy turned on, or by having babies.

The idea that man was lonely so God created woman, just needs to disappear from off the face of the earth! ;-)

~dancer~

Just to be clear, I'm not suggesting having babies is not a fabulous thing!

Amen! I am trying to instill this self worth in my girls. :)

[_truth dancer]

Hi Seven,

When I see women dressing in a sexually suggestive way, I think it reveals more about them than the man who may get turned on. Women like that are very insecure and enjoy/need the sexual attention.

It speaks to girls women who buy into the belief that their worth is based on attention from males.

After six thousand years, I say it is time to move on with this nonsense!

:-)

~dancer~