The testimony: An Emotional Lie

[_SatanWasSetUp]

Patriotism and religious zealotry do have some similarities, but there are major differences:

- Even the most patriotic American will admit that America is not perfect. I've never met a flag waving veteran who says, "The US is perfect, it's the people that aren't." Every four years we are given the opportunity to boot the President out and give the job to a new guy, or gal. If America was really perfect, we wouldn't need new leadership so frequently.

- Even though we love this country, we are free to criticize our leaders. If someone is disgruntled with the state of the nation and writes a book about it, they aren't summoned to a court of love and kicked out of the country. So even thought we love the country, we aren't blindly obedient to the leaders.

- We live in this country, and it is much more difficult to leave a nation than leave a religion, so the better option is to try to change it from within.

- Even though we love this country, we don't excuse the errors of our leaders, past or present. We booted Nixon out in disgrace. We trash former Presidents like Hoover in our history books. We aren't afraid to expose the warts and mistakes of even the most revered guys like Lincoln and Washington. And we don't make excuses for slavery, the treatment of Native Americans, the treatment of African Americans and other minorities, and other black spots in our history.

I think a better comparison to religion would be political parties. How can you be a Republican when there are so many Democrats who think they are right? That might be a better debate. Religion and politics are the two areas where people are too emotionally tied to it to ever change their opinions.

[_Inconceivable]

Scottie,

You might consider that anti-americans may actually be wrong even if they are deluded to think their Allah told them so.

Mormonism is entirely an exclusive and totalitarianistic organization. Try opposing the next prophet in General Conference. You may have noticed that there is only one candidate.

The constitution/Bill of Rights is all inclusive (so long as those that belong to it do not infringe on the rights of others). And of course it is abused. But without it, people cannot cry foul and eventually be heard.

You ought to travel more (in countries that have received travel bans from the US government).

[_Scottie]

SWSU,
You're absolutely right in your differences, but that's not really what we're talking about here. We're talking about testimony, not the intricate workings of the organization.

Also, I don't think this is just an American thing. I think that, just as people will believe in the religion they were born into, people will love the country they were born into. This testimony that they live in the greatest city/state/region/country is no different than the testimony for their religion.

[_Scottie]

You might consider that anti-americans may actually be wrong even if they are deluded to think their Allah told them so.

And you might consider that they might be RIGHT. And how did Allah get into this subject?? Can you honestly not see how someone might look at the extreme wastefulness and war-mongering of America and think badly of us without Allah telling them to?? Oh, that's right...anyone that disagrees with you is an obvious idiot that has to be told everything to believe. They aren't capable of making an informed opinion on their own.

Mormonism is entirely an exclusive and totalitarianistic organization. Try opposing the next prophet in General Conference. You may have noticed that there is only one candidate.

So? What does this have to do with an individuals testimony?

The constitution/Bill of Rights is all inclusive (so long as those that belong to it do not infringe on the rights of others). And of course it is abused. But without it, people cannot cry foul and eventually be heard.

So? What's your point? We have a constitution, so that automatically makes us the best country on earth? Again, I could show you billions of people that would strongly disagree with you. Mormons have the Book of Mormon that makes them the one true church, yet you so readily dismiss that. Why shouldn't anti-American's be allowed to discredit the Constitution and Bill of Rights the same way?

You ought to travel more (in countries that have received travel bans from the US government).

Again, I didn't say that America was the worst country. I just don't think it's the best. And, that is just my point of view. You're free to think whatever you want about America. You're just as bad as TBM's. You absolutely refuse to admit that America has any problems. Defend at all costs!!

[_Some Schmo]

What about patriotism? Those of us that live in the USA, are we just telling ourselves lies that America is the greatest country in the world in order to further believe our own lie? Or do you really believe it? Because I can show you millions, if not billions, of people that call America the Great Satan. Is it just merely a point of view then? If so, then why is it any different for religion? Why are Mormons deluded idiots that can't see the truth right in front of their faces, yet you are so smart that you KNOW against the billions of others on the planet that curse the US? Obviously you can't objectively look at the evidence that they have and come to the same conclusion, so you're an idiot as well, right?

The real problem with this analogy is that a person's view of their nation is an opinion, and is generally acknowledged as such. People aren't repeating "America is #1!" in order to keep believing it. And there is no generally agreed upon empirical criteria for determining whether it is or isn't, in fact, the greatest country in the world.

With the church, however, people are not expressing an opinion when they claim the church is true. They may think the church is #1, but that's not what they're saying when they call it true. Truth is not subject to opinion. It either is or isn't, no matter what people say about it or how they view it.

People express their opinion as though it's fact all the time. This is not lying to oneself (unless you're one of those odd people who thinks their opinion actually is fact). Bearing a testimony is.

[_SatanWasSetUp]

SWSU,
You're absolutely right in your differences, but that's not really what we're talking about here. We're talking about testimony, not the intricate workings of the organization.

But even the "testimonies"are different. As Shmoe says, a testimony that the US is the greatest nation is an opinion, the testimony that the church is true is not.

Also, nobody claims that the US is the ONLY "true" nation on earth, and we don't have a testimony that George Washington was divinely appointed as the founder of the nation. Well, some fundamentalists and Mormons do, but most Americans don't.

Our testimonies aren't so strong that our presidents receive a 100% sustaining vote.

So you can call our opinion of the USA a testimony, but it is vastly different than a Mormon testimony. In fact, if you want to look around the world at patriotic testimonies you would have to go to the more totalitarian regimes to find Mormon-like testimonies of their country and their leaders. The North Korean citizen's testimonies of their nation, and Kim Jong Il's 100% sustaining vote, is more in line with a Mormon testimony.

[_ozemc]

What compromising was seen by the US government when it came to the current conflict in Iraq? Hell, the rest of the the WORLD was telling us what we were about to do was wrong, and yet we went in guns blazing for what? Nothing... These people are NOT better off. Instead of having to worry about a tyrant (Hussien) killing them, they have to worry about their neighbor killing them. The rate of death in Iraq is now much greater than it was before the war. And the US was not willing to compromise about ANYTHING on this.

Would you please give your references for your statements that 1) These people are NOT better off, and 2) the rate of death is now much greater than it was before the war.

Thanks.

[_ozemc]

It's pretty daft to find a downside to democracy when comparing it to middleeastern totalitarianism that feeds on the hatred toward free societies.

I didn't say the USA is the WORST country, just that it's not the best.

Which one, in your opinion, is the best?

[_Scottie]

It's pretty daft to find a downside to democracy when comparing it to middleeastern totalitarianism that feeds on the hatred toward free societies.

I didn't say the USA is the WORST country, just that it's not the best.

Which one, in your opinion, is the best?

Well, personally, I would prefer a simpler life. One of the Scandinavian countries, maybe?

Germany wouldn't be too bad.

[_ozemc]

It's pretty daft to find a downside to democracy when comparing it to middleeastern totalitarianism that feeds on the hatred toward free societies.

I didn't say the USA is the WORST country, just that it's not the best.

Which one, in your opinion, is the best?

Well, personally, I would prefer a simpler life. One of the Scandinavian countries, maybe?

Germany wouldn't be too bad.

Well, to play devil's advocate, you could move to the mountains and live in a cabin.

Eventually, that's what my wife and I would like to do. Smaller house, no yard, etc.

(Of course, I'll have to have DirecTV for the football!)