Vengeance is Mine, and I have Taken a Little

[_beastie]

Good post, Steuss. I do know that some believers like you are very empathetic on this issue. Their voice is just not very loud right now at MAD, apparently.

[_Runtu]

Good post, Steuss. I do know that some believers like you are very empathetic on this issue. Their voice is just not very loud right now at MAD, apparently.

Remember the cardinal rule:

If you feel any sorrow about Mormon victims of persecution, you're just honoring the sacrifice of the early Saints.

If you feel sorrow for the victims of MMM, you're just whining and attempting to make the church look bad.

[_Blixa]

I'm here in Utah now. The Trib has a front page article and sidebars about the upcoming events this week (Sunday issue). Written by Peggy Fletcher Stack its filled with inaccuracies.

There are three main factions: The Mountain Meadows Association (MMA: these are the guys who have "played ball" with the church and include some Fancher descendants but also lots of descendants of the perps. They are the ones who I think are most to blame --- or Ron Loving is --- for the quick foreclosure of forensic study of the artifacts turned up in 1999), The Mountain Meadows Monument Association (MMMF: these have the most Fanchers and emigrant descendants and are the ones pushing for the site to be granted Federal monument status. They also have artifact issues but they are different than those articulated by the MMA. Also they want something done about the dead dunking of the massacre victims, something I think is still a little known thing), and the Mountain Meadows Descendants group (MMD: they overlap with the other two but are probably more aligned with the MMMF --I think, could be wrong.) There is also a Piaute group who I know less about that will be participating on Tuesday.

The MMA and the MMMF are at odds and are not even holding meetings in the same towns. MMA is centered in St. George and the MMMF is holding meetings in Cedar City.

The only thing I am going to see at this point is the memorial at the site on Tuesday (at 10:00 am and possibly other things there later?) and Will's talk in St. George at a bookstore on Wednesday.

I'm not really up to speed as I've little access to a computer at the moment and dealing with family things first (my soon to be 99 year old Grandmother's health).

[_beastie]

So it must be the MMA that has some Mormons as members?

Also they want something done about the dead dunking of the massacre victims, something I think is still a little known thing

I'd never heard of it before. Not that I'm surprised.

[_Blixa]

So it must be the MMA that has some Mormons as members?

Also they want something done about the dead dunking of the massacre victims, something I think is still a little known thing

I'd never heard of it before. Not that I'm surprised.

Yes the MMA. The proxy baptisms were done as a Lee family effort, I believe in 1993 after the 1990 meetings/"Dan Sill Hill" monument.

Here's what I have with me from Blood of the Prophets (I've got further notes and email correspondence on this issue, but not with me at the moment):

Page 370

"Three years later [after 1990 monument] two hundred members of the John D. Lee family met at a three-dayreunion in St. George to "close the book" on the Mountain Meadows massacre. The family conducted LDS temple ordinances, including endowments and sealings, for the murdered Arkansans. The Lee family had talked about doing something like this for more than sixty years, one member said. "We thought it was very important for members of our family to do this work, but even among the Lees there has been some strong feelings and prejudice surrounding the Mountain Meadows Massacre. It's taken a lot to get us to this poing, but what we've done today has been good for us, and I think it represents closure for the whole church on this terrible tradgedy."

[_Blixa]

Steuss - I do realize there are different factions among the descendants. Even with that acknowledged, this post was in very poor taste.

Here's an August 21st post of mine from MA&D (about September Dawn) that might be pertinent here:

Lately I've been in a "weird" place as I think about this movie. On the one hand, I am beginning to think that it is a good thing for these victims to have a "voice," even if it is in a (purportedly) biased film. But, on the other hand, I fear that too many will take this Hollywood account as being factual (much like many did with the Divinci Code).

It's a strange dichotomy that I find myself in. I fear that by denouncing the film, and applauding those who also denounce it, that I may end up not giving the victims their proper respect. But at the same time, there’s part of me that thinks the film should be denounced, and those who come to our aid should be applauded and thanked.

This topic has begun to way a bit heavy on my heart lately, and I don’t quite know how to proceed…

I think that I'm not the only LDS person that falls into this, and it's a hard "line-to-tow" (if such a term could be used). The victims (and their decedents) should have their story told. They should be remembered and paid the respect that victims of other atrocities receive. But, as LDS we often find ourselves getting caught up in protecting “our” entity that we often forget that even if their motives might not be the same as ours, or even if their understanding and view of the events are not necessarily supported by the historical record (which many of ours aren’t necessarily supported either), they still feel something. And those feelings are often lost (by myself, and perhaps others) while trying to stay upon the turrets of “Church fortress,” when instead our efforts might be better served by extending fellowship in lieu of defense. Extending understanding instead of denunciation of “historical inaccuracies.” Extending compassion instead of apologetics.

Sometimes in our zeal to garner empathy for ourselves, we seem to forget that we (I.e. “me”) need to extend it to others as well.

Your points are good, Steuss. I've always maintained that "the story" can be told with actual Mormon heroes in it, in a manner that is both honest, sensitive and critical. Of course, one would have to give up the attempt to shield BY and other leaders, but the payoff would be a history decent folk could take actual pride in, and a history that would speak to the future of a human and humane Mormon identity.

[_moksha]

Blixa, I want you to duck for cover if the shooting starts between these two sides. Tell them you are with the Shades Organization and demand sanctuary.

[_beastie]

Tell them you are with the Shades Organization and demand sanctuary.

I bet that line would work world over. ;)

[_Doctor Steuss]

Smac just posted this over at MA&D, and I think it deserves to be posted in as many places as possible. I'm really impressed by this: http://www.muskogeephoenix.com/opinion/ ... 72523.html

[_beastie]

Thanks, Steuss, it was a good article. I just wonder if some folks over at MAD who have been posting rather intolerant statements will recognize themselves.