Lifting of the priesthood ban for black males

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
Post Reply
_karl61
_Emeritus
Posts: 2983
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2007 6:29 pm

Post by _karl61 »

Coggins7 wrote:
I read some information about this on another site. I was aware of the issues in Brazil, which caused the Church to review the ban on the priesthood for black males. What I did'New Testament know was that the Church was about to lose it's tax empt status because of discrimination. It's interesting that the so-called ban on polygamous marriage came at the time Utah had sought but was being denied statehood. Here, when likely given an estimate of the tax that would be paid, the revelation came. But I read that Kimball described it as inspiration, but the members call it a revelation. It seems that the church sometimes moves down certain roads, not because they want to, but because protestant political power is rallied. I also read that some universities were not going to attend events where BYU participated. I wonder what happened in the LDS chapels in South Africa when Kimball received his inspiration/revelation. I read that the ban was almost rescinded in 1969 but certain apostles got the issue shelved.



All very interesting, except for the fact that Brigham Young made clear a century and a half ago that the "Priesthood ban" had to do with lineage, not race. The racial connotations that crept into the doctrinal explanations for the "ban", whatever their origin, were only that-doctrinal explanations. And, to be clear, I am not saying the 19th century leaders and members did not impose racial connotations on the actual basis of the ban. The ban itself, however, had to do with a lineage which was denied the right to hold the Priesthood for much of the history of human civilization. The Canaanites (Phoenicians), and Egyptians, as well as other black Africans, partook of this lineage.

As the ban itself was unofficial (no records exist of any actual official action regarding the ban, nor is there any official proclamation or declaration on the subject) in the first instance, becoming an official policy only over time (and we know some black males were indeed ordained to the Priesthood in Joseph Smith's life time), consequent GAs were left to speculate as best they could upon the actual reasons for the restriction. Now, of course, given the eras we are speaking of, some racial sentiment was likely a part of the explanatory frameworks that arose. At the same time, as Gaz has pointed out in so many words, most human beings who have ever lived on this earth have never had the opportunity to hold the Priesthood. This includes the vast numbers who lived in periods of history or in nations in which it was not available, as well as those who rejected it in vast numbers when it was.

White Caucasians, according to LDS doctrine, held the Priesthood in limited numbers from the late 1st century through perhaps the end of the second at the most. After this, it was precisely the Caucasian gentiles to whom the Gospel had been taken after being rejected by the House of Israel that gave it up and turned to Hellenistic philosophy and modified pagan ritual in its place.

After this, Mormon doctrine teaches that the white "race" (and please be advised that I don't even subscribe to this concept as a serious anthropological category, so don't belabor the point) was utterly without the right to hold the Priesthood for some 1,800 years, until The Restoration. In other words, there was a Priesthood ban upon all Caucasion peoples for almost 2,000 years.

How long were the Han Chinese without the Priesthood throughout their history? I don't know. Clearly, the Old Testament makes plain that many of the peoples around the ancient Hebrews had no Priesthood, as they had no Gospel knowledge. Did the inhabitants of Akkad, and Sumer, and Babylon hold the Priesthood?

Further, blacks received the Priesthood in 1978, many years after the most turbulent years of the civil rights movement were long past and the heaviest pressure on the Church to change the policy had also long subsided. This is almost 1980. If the Church were going to succumb to pressure to conform to external cultural changes, it most probably would have been during the long hot summers of 1967, '68, and '69, or at least in the political volatile early seventies, not a decade beyond.

Now, a few more observations. Congress shall make no law respecting the freedom of religion. If a church doesn't want to admit blacks, woman, midgets, bald veterinarians, or any other class of human being to its ranks, in a free society it is their business and their business only. I don't particularly like institutions that do not admit blacks for no other reasons than they are black (and this was not the case with the Church. It was understood to be a doctrinal matter that only the Lord could alter, not human beings. Proof of this remains the ordination of many Samoans and Tongans throughout Church history, a number of which have skin as dark as many black people, but whom nonetheless never had any Priesthood restrictions--as was also the case with Amerindians, Latin Americans, and others. It was clearly not skin color or race, per se, that was understood to be at the root of the ban, but lineage. In the same sense, lineage delineates the blessings and limitations ascribed to each of the tribes of Israel in the Old Testament), but it they are private institutions supported by the contributions of members who are their of there own free will, then government has not the slightest business telling them who they may associate with.

Excuse me but the libertarian in me as at a boiling point. The U.S. government threatening to revoke the Church's tax exempt status because of the Priesthood ban was tantamount, because this was a doctrinal matter, to the government imposing a doctrinal change upon a religious body by force. Whether they like it or not isn't the point: it was none of their business. If the Church was a state sponsored church, then yes, but its a private institution supported by its members, not a public school.

Apostles cannot shelve ideas. This is the Lord's church and he is in control of it. You either accept that or you do not. If you do not, than to you the Church and its policies can be understood in purely sociological terms, and your analysis will appear, in that light, more plausible to you.


the point is that when threatened with it's tax exempt status they allowed blacks to have the priesthood. That's a fact. another thing is that Utah has a long history of not caring what the federal government thinks.
"obeying, honoring and sustaining the law" is a joke. For decades the church and the state were the same thing in utah. It almost took a constitutional amendment during the reed smoot hearings to finally solve the "Mormon problem". The church has a long history of turning it's back on this country and it's laws so even if it's tax exempt status was taken away maybe God would just tell them not to pay taxes. Mind your own business was a big theme directed at the people of the united states from the church.
Last edited by Guest on Mon Oct 15, 2007 10:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I want to fly!
_Chap
_Emeritus
Posts: 14190
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:23 am

Post by _Chap »

Coggins7 wrote:
Yes, you're quite right, styleguy. There was enormous social pressure being placed on the Church to remove this racist policy. For example, the Church was sued by the NAACP over a scouting debacle. Basically, black youths could not be scout leaders, since the Church required that troop leaders be priesthood holders. TBMs and Mopologists like to gloss over these pertinent social issues, claiming that it was all due to "revelation," but this is just a red herring. A further damning tidbit is that there was rumored to be a Church News article which revealed that SWK actually asked the Lord for permission to lift the ban! Also, I'm sure you know that the same issue of Church News which announced the end of the ban also featured a headline, demanded by Mark E. Petersen, that read, "Interracial Marriage Strongly Discouraged."



Yup. The race card brings Scratch out from behind the baseboards pop guns blazing. How can the NAACP sue a Church because that Church won't let blacks lead its Scouts? Amazing how, in a free society, various groups of ideologues can impose doctrines and policies on private organizations who's internal policies are none of their business. Blacks could, at that time, of course, lead Scouts quite outside of the Mormon context. Nobody ever needed the Mormon Church to have Scouting. But of course, never tell an anointed, sanctified, crusading leftist that something is none of his business. Everything is their business, from the policies and doctrines of your Church to what kind of food you eat, how much, and how much and what kind of speech you shall be allowed in the few months before a general election.

Make no mistake, "race" is nothing but a bludgeon for Scratch to beat a religion that is just not sufficiently in his own image.


In most civilised countries, it is not legal to discriminate against people because of their skin colour. Not in golf clubs, not in restaurants, not in launderettes, not in baseball games, not in scouts - no, not even if you think you have to discriminate against blacks in your little bit of the world 'cos the Lard told you to.

Why? Well, it would take just toooooooooo long to explain if you don't already see why.
_truth dancer
_Emeritus
Posts: 4792
Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:40 pm

Post by _truth dancer »

Hi Phaedrus...

And does this support the ban on black women also? They were excluded from the temple and leadership positions in the church prior to 1978.


You bring up a great point.

I have asked before,(never received an answer), why black women were not allowed to get their endowments during the ban for black men.

I mean this seriously makes NO sense whatsoever... actually none of it ever did but still.. ;-)

So, black men can't have the priesthood but what has that got to do with a woman getting her endowment?

Black women who couldn't have the priesthood anyway due to their body parts, were not allowed to marry a white man because they were not allowed to go through the temple due to their skin color.

What NONSENSE!

The whole thing was truly sickening...

~dancer~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
_karl61
_Emeritus
Posts: 2983
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2007 6:29 pm

Post by _karl61 »

the sad thing is that the church has no problem taking a black man's tithing and building a temple but then saying that he could'New Testament enter it. This was the big issue is brazil.
I want to fly!
_Coggins7
_Emeritus
Posts: 3679
Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:25 am

Post by _Coggins7 »

the point is that when threatened with it's tax exempt status they allowed blacks to have the priesthood. That's a fact. another thing is that Utah has a long history of not caring what the federal government thinks.
"obeying, honoring and sustaining the law" is a joke. For decades the church and the state were the same thing in utah. It almost took a constitutional amendment during the reed smoot hearings to finally solve the "Mormon problem". The church has a long history of turning it's back on this country and it's laws so even if it's tax exempt status was taken away maybe God would just tell them not to pay taxes. Mind your own business was a big theme directed at the people of the united states from the church.



No, that is not the point. The point is you don't have any idea, in any direct or verifiable way, why the Church changed its policy when it did. Your claim is a bare assertion only; an assumption based on other preexisting assumptions regarding the nature of the Church and its actual status as a divine institution or as a purely human one. Your assumptions do not prove your claims without some compelling supporting evidence.

Now, of course, this is a tall order, as you cannot see into the hearts and minds of the Leaders of the Church and can only assume and guess, given the cultural context of the time in question, at that from which you extrapolate your inferences. Are they plausible? Yes they are. Are they correct? I'm not at all convinced that they are, and your only evidence that they are is the correlation between certain social and political pressures and the decision. You are going to have a long uphill climb demonstrating that your assertions on this point are actually true, however. It may also be quite possible that the social pressure brought to bear on the Church may have encouraged them to petition the Lord for an answer. Church history is full of such situations. Most of Joseph's major doctrinal contributions to the Church were made only when Joseph came to an impasse in understanding or a personal trial for which he needed direct divine assistance.

I think the crux of this matter is that you do not accept, a priori, the divine truth claims of the Church at the outset, and therefore its an intellectually easy step to explain everything that happens within it as no different than that which happens in other, purely human institutions. Whether that is, indeed the case, however, remains at issue.

Mind your own business was a big theme directed at the people of the united states from the church.


Yes, it was also a very large concern of the Founders and especially of those who wrote the Constitution. Oh, and by the way, I don't care much what the federal government thinks on a large number of issues either, and if I had my way, this government wouldn't be but a fraction of the size it is or have a fraction of the responsibilities and perogatives it presently has.

Your claim that the Church has a long history of turning its back on this country is about all I need to see to understand that you are not coming to the table either ingenuously or seriously.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
_Trevor
_Emeritus
Posts: 7213
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 6:28 pm

Post by _Trevor »

Coggins7 wrote:All very interesting, except for the fact that Brigham Young made clear a century and a half ago that the "Priesthood ban" had to do with lineage, not race.


How convenient that race was the basis for determining that lineage!
_Coggins7
_Emeritus
Posts: 3679
Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:25 am

Post by _Coggins7 »

In most civilised countries, it is not legal to discriminate against people because of their skin colour. Not in golf clubs, not in restaurants, not in launderettes, not in baseball games, not in scouts - no, not even if you think you have to discriminate against blacks in your little bit of the world 'cos the Lard told you to.

Why? Well, it would take just toooooooooo long to explain if you don't already see why.



Well, the thing is, for those of you here who have gone through the public schools in this country and actually absorbed much of the stuff you encountered there,this country was founded as a free country; as a Republic in which government did not involve itself in the personal choices of its citizens in a wide array of areas, including the choice of who to associate with and on what terms.

Calling a country civilized doesn't pull you out of the requirement that you logically and substantively support your assertions with some reason to believe the state has the right to come onto private property and force those upon it, against there will, to associate with those whom they do not want to associate with. A church is not a public place in the sense that a restaurant is. Restaurants are profit making entities who exist to serve their clientèle. A Church is a private institution of like minded individuals who choose to associate together and who subscribe to a specific set of requirements for entrance into that institution. They do not pay to receive services, but only to physically support the institution so that it can carry out its purposes.

The Spartans and the Mongols both had civilizations, but few today would say that they were of socially acceptable form. Other civilized societies may ban discrimination in such and such cases. So do we. But the question is really, what does a free society do? Does a free society force associations? A free and civilized society certainly can and should proscribe kinds of overt discrimination, and it should make certain that equality under the law, the rule of law, and the equal protection of the laws applies to all. If a car dealer tells a black person he will not sell him a car because he is black, he is sanctioned by law because it can be argued that black people need cars as much as anyone else; they must work, eat, and raise their families, and we have no right to deny him these things because of a condition (skin color) over which he has no control. This is as true of Blacks as it is of Jews, Italians, Irish, or Mormons. But upon what grounds can the state force a private club, society, religion, fraternal organization, or any similar institution, to associate with those it seeks to isolate itself from? This is a general question of political philosophy, and speaks to just how far we want to grant nanny powers to control our behavior, attitudes, and even our conscience.

Racism is an evil, make no mistake, but as long as it doesn't misbehave in public and scare the horses, in a free society, there are distinct limits as to what the state, even when backed by a majority of opinion, can force others to do in there own private spaces supported with their own funds earned through lawful economic activity.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
_karl61
_Emeritus
Posts: 2983
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2007 6:29 pm

Post by _karl61 »

Coggins7 wrote:
the point is that when threatened with it's tax exempt status they allowed blacks to have the priesthood. That's a fact. another thing is that Utah has a long history of not caring what the federal government thinks.
"obeying, honoring and sustaining the law" is a joke. For decades the church and the state were the same thing in utah. It almost took a constitutional amendment during the reed smoot hearings to finally solve the "Mormon problem". The church has a long history of turning it's back on this country and it's laws so even if it's tax exempt status was taken away maybe God would just tell them not to pay taxes. Mind your own business was a big theme directed at the people of the united states from the church.



No, that is not the point. The point is you don't have any idea, in any direct or verifiable way, why the Church changed its policy when it did. Your claim is a bare assertion only; an assumption based on other preexisting assumptions regarding the nature of the Church and its actual status as a divine institution or as a purely human one. Your assumptions do not prove your claims without some compelling supporting evidence.

Now, of course, this is a tall order, as you cannot see into the hearts and minds of the Leaders of the Church and can only assume and guess, given the cultural context of the time in question, at that from which you extrapolate your inferences. Are they plausible? Yes they are. Are they correct? I'm not at all convinced that they are, and your only evidence that they are is the correlation between certain social and political pressures and the decision. You are going to have a long uphill climb demonstrating that your assertions on this point are actually true, however. It may also be quite possible that the social pressure brought to bear on the Church may have encouraged them to petition the Lord for an answer. Church history is full of such situations. Most of Joseph's major doctrinal contributions to the Church were made only when Joseph came to an impasse in understanding or a personal trial for which he needed direct divine assistance.

I think the crux of this matter is that you do not accept, a priori, the divine truth claims of the Church at the outset, and therefore its an intellectually easy step to explain everything that happens within it as no different than that which happens in other, purely human institutions. Whether that is, indeed the case, however, remains at issue.

Mind your own business was a big theme directed at the people of the united states from the church.


Yes, it was also a very large concern of the Founders and especially of those who wrote the Constitution. Oh, and by the way, I don't care much what the federal government thinks on a large number of issues either, and if I had my way, this government wouldn't be but a fraction of the size it is or have a fraction of the responsibilities and perogatives it presently has.

Your claim that the Church has a long history of turning its back on this country is about all I need to see to understand that you are not coming to the table either ingenuously or seriously.


only an OJ juror or someone in the Church would believe what you wrote but not one person outside the church that has a decent education. I pointed out that the church and the state in Utah were the same for many years. That legislation passed by the congress to address the "Mormon" problem was ingnored by the Mormon church, that at the reed smoot hearings at the beginning of the twentieth century Mormon apostles were sent out of the country and went into hiding instead of testify which would show the Mormon church in the early 1900's was almost the same Church that it had been prior to the Edmonds-Tucker act. They still were running coporationd, they still were performing bogus marriages, which created a situation where adultery was openly practiced (the second marriage is illegal therefore it's not a legal marriage - just like an illegal contract is void from the beginning) The church has been on good behavior for about one hundred years, has repented and changed, but they were the prodigal son of the 1800's.
I want to fly!
_Coggins7
_Emeritus
Posts: 3679
Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:25 am

Post by _Coggins7 »

How convenient that race was the basis for determining that lineage!


Nowhere does any GA I know of claim that race was the basis for determining the lineage, and I did not make such a claim. If you had read my post a little more thoroughly you would have seen that I do not subscribe to the concept of race as a valid intellectual category. Human beings are all of one type or species, and are differentiated by a plethora of variations involving minor anatomical and physiological modifications. There are no human "races" distinct from one another in the manner that the doctrine of racism assumes.

The entire concept of the Priesthood ban was based on the idea of lineage. But then, lineage looms large throughout LDS doctrine regarding exactly everybody, so this is no surprise at all.

What Brigham Young and others taught was that black people were of a specific lineage which was denied the higher Priesthood. He didn't say that race determined the lineage but that this particular race was a part of that lineage.

But, again, as this was never official church doctrine, the point is moot. Yes, it was taught in authoritative tones-in the same authoritative tones some GAs have denounced evolutionary theory, but the Church does not function on the teachings of one, or even a body of GAs. That isn't how official, settled doctrine is understood to be received and accepted by the general membership.
The face of sin today often wears the mask of tolerance.


- Thomas S. Monson
_karl61
_Emeritus
Posts: 2983
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2007 6:29 pm

Post by _karl61 »

Coggins7 wrote:
How convenient that race was the basis for determining that lineage!


Nowhere does any GA I know of claim that race was the basis for determining the lineage, and I did not make such a claim. If you had read my post a little more thoroughly you would have seen that I do not subscribe to the concept of race as a valid intellectual category. Human beings are all of one type or species, and are differentiated by a plethora of variations involving minor anatomical and physiological modifications. There are no human "races" distinct from one another in the manner that the doctrine of racism assumes.

The entire concept of the Priesthood ban was based on the idea of lineage. But then, lineage looms large throughout LDS doctrine regarding exactly everybody, so this is no surprise at all.

What Brigham Young and others taught was that black people were of a specific lineage which was denied the higher Priesthood. He didn't say that race determined the lineage but that this particular race was a part of that lineage.

But, again, as this was never official church doctrine, the point is moot. Yes, it was taught in authoritative tones-in the same authoritative tones some GAs have denounced evolutionary theory, but the Church does not function on the teachings of one, or even a body of GAs. That isn't how official, settled doctrine is understood to be received and accepted by the general membership.


It is impossible! for the Mormon church to tell a black man what his lineage is. Do you really believe it can?
I want to fly!
Post Reply