We have a winner

[_Dr. Shades]

Yes, barrelomonkeys, that is the norm.

At any rate, there is one grand key by which we can know that Hammer is either lying or deluded: Let's face it, what on earth would Joseph Smith possibly have to talk about with Hammer? And of all people on earth to return from the dead for, why on earth would Joseph Smith choose Hammer?

That puts an end to the controversy right there--if there was any controversy to begin with.

[_Trinity]

Oh! Wait! Is that what the Church does? We're special cause we have these experiences and others need to join to have them too? Eep!

Is he just the norm? Oh, someone tell me Hammer is not the norm for LDS!!

No, barrel, thankfully he is not the norm. There is a subset in Mormons that tickle the temporal lobe just a little bit more often than others. They're weird, creepy, claiming all sorts of supernatural experiences. Generally keep to the back of the chapel and don't talk much. This group is marginalized even within Mormonism. I've only known two Mormons in my life that have claimed to see Jesus or God. Neither are currently active.

Hammer is a first for claiming that Joseph came to visit. I can't see Joseph making the crossover trip unless there was a woman involved. So unless Hammer is really a woman, I think this claim can be debunked.

[_Sethbag]

It reminds me of an article written about Romney. The author said religion shouldn't normally matter in ones choice for president, but sometimes (like the case of Mormonism) the beliefs are so far out there that they do become a factor.

Are Mormonisms beliefs any more strange the any other religion? How about a baptist minister who believes a man rose from the dead and that God had to kill his Son to forgive the creation God made in the fist place. How about the idea of the Rapture and the tribulation period, the anti Christ, Armageddon and all the plagues that are outlined in Revelation. Would you take Huckabee over Romney? Huckabee certainly believes all this. Do you want another evangelical president?

I have to agree with Jason Bourne. Traditional Christian beliefs aren't really any less strange than Mormon beliefs. They just happen to be the beliefs of many millions more people in this country, and so their strangeness gets the "home field advantage", as it were, and the strangeness seems to disappear.

It's sort of like how people are unaware that they have a smell, but it sure stands out to others.

As for Hammer, I think he is not telling the truth at all.

I'm inclined to agree here, too. I just don't know if he's lying knowingly or just deluded. If he didn't have such whacked out ideas on other subjects I might be inclined to take his claims more seriously, but I have a hard time imagining Joseph Smith, or God, or whatever, would personally visit someone who is otherwise so clueless, without a little clue rubbing off somehow.

[_MishMagnet]

Call me romantic but I do like to think of God as the source of truth and love. Therefore I would expect those that came in contact with such a force to be forever changed and yes, nice, peaceful people full of truth and love.

And - absolutley - this is why I don't believe that Joseph Smith had such an encounter.

I don't mock others experiences but I do mix them with a healthy dose of skepticism. I live in a town which is regarded as very haunted. Nearly everyone in my neighborhood will tell you stories of the ghost(s) that abide in their house. This does not cause me to believe in ghosts. People in and out of the church will claim they have been visited by loved ones who have passed on. I think that is great for them. It doesn't cause me to believe this has happened to them, though. Vivid dreams can feel like conversations. Vivid dreams can feel like messages. I have had them myself. I was pulled out of a deep depression after I was told I'd never have children by a dream in which I was being married in the temple to my then boyfriend. It was enough for me to recount in Testimony meeting. Does this convince you of anything? I can tell you the end of the story was that my boyfriend left me for someone else, I was not married in the temple and I was able to have children (with much medical help.) At that time it was very helpful. My main grief at that particular moment was not that I would never be pregnant but that nobody would want to marry me because of it.

[Guest]

Where does it say spiritual experiences inevitably make one a perfectly nice pleasant person?

By the way, lump me in with Hammer. I have had similar experiences though not with Joseph. I assure you I'm sincere. I'm not lying. That leaves it's the truth or I'm insane.

I report, you decide :)

I have brown hair, I could tell you I have red hair, you don't know. It might be true, but just because there are people in the world with red hair does not mean I must be either "telling the truth or insane" Just because you might be telling the truth in saying you had a similar experience, does not mean Hammer is telling the truth. It does not at all rule out that he is telling porkies.

Also is you read the structure of his reply and the set out and the energy it gives off, You can see CLEARLY it is an act of defence and therefore is NOT the truth. It might be twisted truth in that he has took something he has experienced and twised it to suit the cause of the post. That is if he genuinly has problem with lying.

[_truth dancer]

Hi MM...

Therefore I would expect those that came in contact with such a force to be forever changed and yes, nice, peaceful people full of truth and love.

I'm so with you on this.

First, as I mentioned, people throughout the ages have "seen" various otherworldly beings/apparitions/ghosts, etc. etc.

This is so NOTHING new...

Having said this, I have a sense that if there was a human being who somehow had a true encounter with "God" or an awareness beyond the norm of the Divine/Source, they would first, have achieved such a degree of holiness/sensitivity that they could experience it beyond what is normally humanly possible, and secondly, after such an experience I would think they would be altered in such a way that only goodness/holiness would flow through them.

I just truly do not see the God of the Universe visiting, chatting, appearing to all these guys and gals who claim "he" does so, when they are not even remotely close to being a kind, caring, decent, honorable, or compassionate being.

It just doesn't make sense to me at all....

Of course if there was such a Divine being he/she/it could chat with whomever, but for me, knowing how many folks claim these divine conversations and meetings, knowing these experiences are all over the place and contradictory with each other, and knowing that many of their lives do not reflect what I would consider goodness or Godliness, I'm left with guessing these experiences of other worldly beings have more to do with the human brain/needs/delusions than with Divinity.

Just a guess... ;-)

~dancer~

[_Ten Bear]

I saw that thread too. It's an interesting read. I've run across people like him before. For me it's like running across an strange, odd shaped object in the desert. You pick it up, look at it for a minute, then look to see if anyones looking at you, then drop it and just leave it where you found it.

The more striking question for me is, how many of the MADB folks bought it? Reading through that thread, it's like noone blinked an eye (faithful members, that is). Scary. But I can see typical apologetics kicking in and things like "define 'face to face' " and "it could have been his spiritual eyes" and other mind twisting garbage like that coming into play if someone were to call him on it. So I just left it where it was.

[_The Nehor]

Yes, barrelomonkeys, that is the norm.

At any rate, there is one grand key by which we can know that Hammer is either lying or deluded: Let's face it, what on earth would Joseph Smith possibly have to talk about with Hammer? And of all people on earth to return from the dead for, why on earth would Joseph Smith choose Hammer?

That puts an end to the controversy right there--if there was any controversy to begin with.

Maybe he likes him.

[_Ten Bear]

Yes, barrelomonkeys, that is the norm.

At any rate, there is one grand key by which we can know that Hammer is either lying or deluded: Let's face it, what on earth would Joseph Smith possibly have to talk about with Hammer? And of all people on earth to return from the dead for, why on earth would Joseph Smith choose Hammer?

That puts an end to the controversy right there--if there was any controversy to begin with.

Maybe he likes him.

Birds of a feather.

[_The Nehor]

Hi MM...

Therefore I would expect those that came in contact with such a force to be forever changed and yes, nice, peaceful people full of truth and love.

I'm so with you on this.

First, as I mentioned, people throughout the ages have "seen" various otherworldly beings/apparitions/ghosts, etc. etc.

This is so NOTHING new...

Having said this, I have a sense that if there was a human being who somehow had a true encounter with "God" or an awareness beyond the norm of the Divine/Source, they would first, have achieved such a degree of holiness/sensitivity that they could experience it beyond what is normally humanly possible, and secondly, after such an experience I would think they would be altered in such a way that only goodness/holiness would flow through them.

I just truly do not see the God of the Universe visiting, chatting, appearing to all these guys and gals who claim "he" does so, when they are not even remotely close to being a kind, caring, decent, honorable, or compassionate being.

It just doesn't make sense to me at all....

Of course if there was such a Divine being he/she/it could chat with whomever, but for me, knowing how many folks claim these divine conversations and meetings, knowing these experiences are all over the place and contradictory with each other, and knowing that many of their lives do not reflect what I would consider goodness or Godliness, I'm left with guessing these experiences of other worldly beings have more to do with the human brain/needs/delusions than with Divinity.

Just a guess... ;-)

~dancer~

I think you're guessing though. Unless you've met someone who has had such an experience with God you have no idea what such an encounter would do. This is akin to those who say that if they saw an angel they'd believe. I know people who've claimed to have seen an angel. I believe them. One left the Church. He still believes (because of that experience) but he hates God. Experiences change people but they don't override who and what they are. People can still choose to become monsters or saints.