Why They Leave

[_beastie]

Wow. I'm impressed. By the end of the podcast a lot of the signs pointed to the author being quite a (real) liberal Mormon who has, perhaps, his own understanding of "true", and that might turn some believers off. But really, it was a breath of fresh air to hear a believing Mormon admit that, number one, many people leave the church due to doctrinal issues and it's insulting to say or insinuate they left for the clichéd reasons repeated in the church, and number two, that many of these doctrinal issues are legitimate issues that cannot be dismissed. It was also refreshing to hear a believer state that the way Mormons often react to these people creates even more problems for them, instead of trying to blame the "apostate" for all problems. It was refreshing to hear him admit that Mormons aren't taught these things and are often shocked to learn them. He didn't learn that Joseph Smith had more than one wife until he was in his thirties (If I recall correctly), as one example.

When I lost faith years ago and was still attending church, I struggled with what to do next. After years of turmoil, I finally had accepted that the church wasn't "True" in the way it taught. Yet I hadn't decided if that meant I should leave it, or should I stay "on my own terms", as he talks about? What pushed me over the edge into formally leaving was one particular Sunday School lesson. I don't remember what the lesson was about, but the lesson occurred after the excommunication of the September Six, and somehow the teacher worked that into the lesson. He talked at length about how important it was to keep the flock pure, to protect other members from people like the Six, who would teach them false doctrines, and how if a member wasn't willing to obey the prophet in all things they had no business being in the church.

I actually felt physically ill during the lesson. I knew then that I would not stay in the church. The church obviously didn't want people like me - the brethren had demonstrated that with the excommunication of the Six, and members were applauding it.

That was the last time I ever attended church, with the exception of family issues, like missionary farewells or performances.

So he's absolutely right that this dogmatic attitude of members pushes us away. But the real question is whether or not church leadership, which sets the tone for these things, wants people like us to stay. Or would we be wolves in sheep clothing?

I know that he, and others, want us to stay, want us to find our own liberal ways to continue in faith. But I remain unconvinced that this is what church leadership wants, and until church leadership wants that, this attitude is not going to be widespread enough to make a difference.

In the end, I've been much happier outside the church, but my costs have been minor. I don't live in an area dominated by LDS, in fact, I almost never even run into an LDS person. Half of my family remain active believers, but they are very tolerant - maybe due to the fact that they converted later in life? With the exception of my much younger sister, none of us were raised LDS.

But I do understand that the cost of exodus is quite high for people with determined spouses, or who live in Mormon dominated cultures. Unlike some on this board, I do not criticize those who decide to stay and be believers on their own terms. I understand that, in terms of cost/benefit, it may be the best decision they can make for their lives. None of us are living their lives, and we have no business judging their decisions, in my opinion.

One criticism I have, and may email him with, is that he rightly condemned "bad apologetics", and then pointed people to a prominent source of bad apologetics - FAIR. Even the example he used of bad apologetics, (steel not really being steel but other metals) is found there.

Overall, it was a breath of fresh air, particularly after dealing with internet apologetics for so long. He even recognized that bad apologetics does more harm than anti-mormon literature itself.

I think every member who, for whatever reason, wants to interact with "apostates", like Charity so clearly does, ought to listen to it. However, I doubt her attention span is long enough, which is unfortunate, because she is in severe need of information.

[_chonguey]

One criticism I have, and may email him with, is that he rightly condemned "bad apologetics", and then pointed people to a prominent source of bad apologetics - FAIR. Even the example he used of bad apologetics, (steel not really being steel but other metals) is found there.

Exactly. Bad apologetics from the same people who bring you the Lard's will? No thanks. Good Apologetics can only be done by studying all sides of the issue, not just one.

[_BishopRic]

When I lost faith years ago and was still attending church, I struggled with what to do next. After years of turmoil, I finally had accepted that the church wasn't "True" in the way it taught. Yet I hadn't decided if that meant I should leave it, or should I stay "on my own terms", as he talks about? What pushed me over the edge into formally leaving was one particular Sunday School lesson. I don't remember what the lesson was about, but the lesson occurred after the excommunication of the September Six, and somehow the teacher worked that into the lesson. He talked at length about how important it was to keep the flock pure, to protect other members from people like the Six, who would teach them false doctrines, and how if a member wasn't willing to obey the prophet in all things they had no business being in the church.

I actually felt physically ill during the lesson. I knew then that I would not stay in the church. The church obviously didn't want people like me - the brethren had demonstrated that with the excommunication of the Six, and members were applauding it.

That was the last time I ever attended church, with the exception of family issues, like missionary farewells or performances.

Thanks for this story beastie. It's funny how so many of us had similar paths. As I learned "the rest of the story" about the church, I had the intention like many to improve the church from within. It was full of good, well-meaning members who had simply been fooled like I had been, so by gradually, subtly teaching the truth in my various teaching roles, I would be doing my small part to bring the church into integrity.

I continued reading everything I could about the different versions of church history, and found myself like beastie, getting sick to my stomach when I would hear so many false statements in church meetings. One day I decided to go on a mountain hike while the fam went to church, and when we sat down for Sunday dinner, there was such a difference in my positive energy as compared to theirs...I knew I couldn't subject myself to the negative, judgmental culture that was damaging my soul...and I've only been back for mish farewells and reports.

One thing I've found over the last 10 plus years as an exmo is that there is a very good, compassionate, spiritual world of people out there that most LDS members don't recognize. There's something about the culture that tends to ingrain an "us vs. them" attitude. I'm sure it is common in other staunchly dogmatic religions too, but I'm just not familiar with them -- I feel I've experienced enough separationism in my days as a Mormon. It has sure been enlightening and freeing to see other cultures and people as all having much good to offer humanity. I actually consider that as an increase in my spirituality, rather than a loss of faith as some TBMs like to label it.

Just my 2 1/4 cents worth.

[_karl61]

I liked (really liked) the thought of replacing the word "true" with good.
saying I know this church is good is a lot more honest, praiseworthy and of good report
and seems to bring more peace to the soul.....(my thoughts)

[_Blixa]

It doesn't work with Firefox on a Mac, though.

I do appreciate any effort to get beyond the knee jerk judgementalism like that exhibited by charity in her first comment (the immediate reference to "temptation!"), but I really find the "stay for the good" position Dehlin occupies to be severely problematic. "What good?" would be my first response, followed by "any 'good' in the church can also be found outside it and without all the bad."

For me everything virtuous, lovely and of good report existed entirely "out" of the church: all interesting ideas, all philosophy, all art, all music, all literature, all culture, all breathtakingly amazing experiences, all of the most challenging forms of relations between people---everything. That's not to say that there aren't decent human beings who are mormon--the board is evidence against that--but that everything that speaks to the greatest in human achievement has been created without anything "Mormon."

[_BishopRic]

It doesn't work with Firefox on a Mac, though.

I do appreciate any effort to get beyond the knee jerk judgementalism like that exhibited by charity in her first comment (the immediate reference to "temptation!"), but I really find the "stay for the good" position Dehlin occupies to be severely problematic. "What good?" would be my first response, followed by "any 'good' in the church can also be found outside it and without all the bad."

For me everything virtuous, lovely and of good report existed entirely "out" of the church: all interesting ideas, all philosophy, all art, all music, all literature, all culture, all breathtakingly amazing experiences, all of the most challenging forms of relations between people---everything. That's not to say that there aren't decent human beings who are mormon--the board is evidence against that--but that everything that speaks to the greatest in human achievement has been created without anything "Mormon."

I mostly agree with this (of course, that's why I left), but I also understand the plight of John Dehlin and many others I know. There are thousands of "CUBs" (closet-un-believers) and NOMs in the church, simply because they view staying active as the lesser evil than the turmoil leaving would cause them in their marriage and family relationships. It all seems to create a lot of mental gymnastics to justify staying. I'm still amazed that John, Grant Palmer, and other very bright people choose to stay despite knowing what they know. To each their own, I guess...

[_Sethbag]

I will have to chime in here with BishopRic and Blixa and say that one of the big eye openers for me has been how nice it is to think of myself now as primarily part of the world, and not just part of some separate clique. I'm part of nearly 7 billion people, and am no better nor worse than the rest of them, rather than part of the 3 or 4 million active Mormons who "know the Truth" that the other 7 billion don't. It feels pretty good, actually. I like being part of the entire world and what's going on with all my fellow humans. I like it better than I liked being part of this small subset that really knew what was going on, while everyone else in the world plodded along in their "ignorance".

ROFL, to think about it now...

[_harmony]

I mostly agree with this (of course, that's why I left), but I also understand the plight of John Dehlin and many others I know. There are thousands of "CUBs" (closet-un-believers) and NOMs in the church, simply because they view staying active as the lesser evil than the turmoil leaving would cause them in their marriage and family relationships. It all seems to create a lot of mental gymnastics to justify staying. I'm still amazed that John, Grant Palmer, and other very bright people choose to stay despite knowing what they know. To each their own, I guess...

Having lived on both sides of the divide (I was raised a Baptist/United Brethren), I find problems with both sides and good on both sides, so staying is not the issue for me. I simply avoid most of the Sunday meetings, and choose family over church. An example that is pertinent: my single 30 year old daughter invited my nonmember mother and I to a concert next week featuring some amazing local talent. I agreed to go to this intergenerational evening, because I think it will be hugely enjoyable. The same evening is the ward Relief Society dinner for all the women in the ward, complete with a program and a gift exchange. I will miss that. I put my family in front of the church. I do whenever the choice has to be made: family first always. I find that a good rule to live by, which is probably why my family thinks my house is the safest most accepting place to be, when the storms of life break over their heads.

I don't need more stress in my life; my stress level is barely manageable as it is. Anything that might add to my stress is automatically given great scrutiny. The stress involved in leaving the church would likely start another health crisis, so I avoid that.

[_Blixa]

I will have to chime in here with BishopRic and Blixa and say that one of the big eye openers for me has been how nice it is to think of myself now as primarily part of the world, and not just part of some separate clique. I'm part of nearly 7 billion people, and am no better nor worse than the rest of them, rather than part of the 3 or 4 million active Mormons who "know the Truth" that the other 7 billion don't. It feels pretty good, actually. I like being part of the entire world and what's going on with all my fellow humans. I like it better than I liked being part of this small subset that really knew what was going on, while everyone else in the world plodded along in their "ignorance".

Oh, I so agree. Being a "citizen of the world" or a "citizen of history"--even mentally--is wonderful, astonishing and challenging. On the balance I've had an extremely exciting and amazing series of experiences in my life; I could die happy and fulfilled at any time. And none of this could have happened within the confines of Mormon womanhood.

I also agree with your points BishopRic:

I also understand the plight of John Dehlin and many others I know. There are thousands of "CUBs" (closet-un-believers) and NOMs in the church, simply because they view staying active as the lesser evil than the turmoil leaving would cause them in their marriage and family relationships.

and I have a lot of sympathy. But this sort of thing, to me, just gives the lie to the "good" that they're supposedly staying for. Their lives, their families are more being held hostage than anything else. I'm glad I'm not in that postion, but I am also heart broken over the agony I've seen caused by this, the agony suffered by honest and decent human beings who've done nothing wrong.

[_Ten Bear]

I listened to the podcast. Most of it was good but I thought his conclusions were a little off. I agree that there could probably be more charity towards others rather than a vague sense of fear about them. However, his conclusion that people should consider staying because of good rather than truth came off as shallow to me. Maybe it works for him and some others but I couldn't do it.

As a practicing NOM, I feel an extra sense to "look through both sets of glasses". I can see where people who are struggling with the church or have left like that part about "Forget truth... consider Good." It helps me. But through the eyes of a TBM, I can see where it could make them cringe. He touched on it right at the begining - the old way of thinking is everything is either black or white. I think most TBMs still see things that way. (I like how things that are in "shades" were actually in color).

It's part of the dicotomy (sp?) type thinking in the church. Pres. Hinckley has said, many times, either it is true, or it is a fraud. That doesn't leave much for middle ground. Especially in light of last weeks EQ lesson where we are to accept everything, I mean EVERYTHING on faith. The Bretheren are in control.

I feel it's the church itself that imposed this "all or nothing" way of thinking on the member. But I like what John said, we all live the parts we want whether we think we do or not. As for me, I'll look for the good, but I don't think it's true.