How God directs the church & meaning of: astray

[_Moniker]

I'm getting rather tired of hearing some of the self-proclaimed "thinkers" throw the tired old argument around that a majority of church members are non-thinking automatons that simply want to be told everything to do.

Well, I'm not a "thinker" (just ask Coggins) but this interests me.

Even when what they're being told what to do is hard.

What is difficult that they're being directed to do?

Seems to me that human nature, being what it is, would dictate that these same sheeplike automatons would tell the church to go stick it.

Oh, that's what you folks have done. <grin>

Are you suggesting that the trials of being LDS was too much for those that are self-proclaimed "thinkers"? People leave the Church cause they couldn't handle it? I wonder, again, what is so trying about being LDS.

Members aren't simply grazing out in the field and acting rather cultish, they're working their butts off at being righteous and serving their fellowman. Or at least, trying to do so.

This takes no small IQ.

What precisely is difficult about being "righteous"? Is it possible to be a non-theist and righteous? What does "righteous" mean when used in the framework of LDS beliefs? Trying to abstain from sin? Couldn't a non-theist have a code of ethics that they too try to follow?

[_mentalgymnast]

I'm getting rather tired of hearing some of the self-proclaimed "thinkers" throw the tired old argument around that a majority of church members are non-thinking automatons that simply want to be told everything to do.

Well, I'm not a "thinker" (just ask Coggins) but this interests me.

Even when what they're being told what to do is hard.

What is difficult that they're being directed to do?

Sacrifice of time, talents, and everything that the Lord has blessed us with, to the building up the kingdom of God on earth. You can break it down to the incrementals.

Easy? Not always. I assume you've been there?

The church requires a good deal more sacrifice of the rank and file than many/most other religious institutions. You can find exceptions, sure. My point is, however, that why would a automaton, non-thinking sheep of a member keep on keeping on with the sacrificial/difficult life of being a member of the LDS church?

Are they THAT stupid?

Regards,
MG

[_The Nehor]

Hey Gad, I've had the Spirit tell me not to obey several things the Brethren have said. Does that count?

Maybe it's the newness of the year, but I find myself compelled to comment on this. I've seen several statements along these lines from Nehor (including many wherein he claims direct communication from God). So I must ask - why is it that you think you are privy to such communication from God, where others - including the church leaders - are not? The implication is that you are given special direction or instruction that others in the church are not. Why is that? And what, in particular, has the spirit told you not to obey? And what are the implications of those "several things"? Is your salvation somehow different than that which is available to others?

Well, Happy New Year.

I'm privy to such communications from God because I ask. Ever been in a meeting where some counsel was given that seemed wrong somehow or at best inapplicable. That's when you take it to God. Sometimes he'll tell me to do it anyways. More often he'll alter the advice some so it will work better. And sometimes he tells me it doesn't apply to me, has no relevance, or what I'm doing works better than that suggestion, or even that I just don't have the talents to pull whatever was asked off.

Everyone's salvation is different. There's a few things that everyone has been told to do in scripture and the like. Then there is forming the WHOLE gospel into a plan in your life that works. You do this by sitting down with God and talking it over. Then you implement. Frustration hits when you're in Sacrament Meeting and you try to apply everything everyone has said. Some of it will be on a higher spiritual level than you and be worthless. Some will be lower and you've surpassed it and replaced with something better. Some will be impossible for you. Some will be too easy and God needs you to do more than that. The Church is there to aid in your spiritual journey. When it becomes the spiritual journey, stagnation follows. You shift the burden of your spiritual life onto someone else.

"When the means become autonomous, they are deadly."

I think everyone should get special direction, probably on a daily basis. Joseph taught that everyone must be brought into conformity with God's will in their own unique way. There are members of the Church whose paths seem insane to me and they would never work for me. Some of them are on a level so HIIIIIIIIGH, high above me, she's so lovely.....oh....sorry.

Anyway, those are my thoughts.

[_Moniker]

I'm getting rather tired of hearing some of the self-proclaimed "thinkers" throw the tired old argument around that a majority of church members are non-thinking automatons that simply want to be told everything to do.

Well, I'm not a "thinker" (just ask Coggins) but this interests me.

Even when what they're being told what to do is hard.

What is difficult that they're being directed to do?

Sacrifice of time, talents, and everything that the Lord has blessed us with, to the building up the kingdom of God on earth. You can break it down to the incrementals.

Well, do you know what I do with my time and talents (guffaw!)? I work on righting social injustice, sacrifice my time and money to help those in need, and am actively involved not only in my local community but also the world wide community! I work on the kingdom of humanity! I won't break it down into incrementals for you, best rest assured I can if you so need me to. :)

Easy? Not always. I assume you've been there?

I don't know where "there" is? I find it quite easy and gratifying to give my time and energy to others. Immensely. I find nothing difficult in doing so.

The church requires a good deal more sacrifice of the rank and file than many/most other religious institutions. You can find exceptions, sure. My point is, however, that why would a automaton, non-thinking sheep of a member keep on keeping on with the sacrificial/difficult life of being a member of the LDS church?

Well, that's precisely what I'm asking you, for the second time now. What precisely is difficult for LDS? I am asking with all sincerity. I promise!

Are they THAT stupid?

I would imagine not. I wouldn't suggest anyone is stupid for having faith and belonging to the LDS Church. I imagine one draw of the Church is the good works. At least, I certainly appreciate that aspect of the Church. Matter of fact that is more praise worthy to me than any of the other protestant religions. Of course I'm assuming here you're talking about works -- but I have no idea since you never answered my question.

[_truth dancer]

Hi MG...

The church requires a good deal more sacrifice of the rank and file than many/most other religious institutions. You can find exceptions, sure. My point is, however, that why would a automaton, non-thinking sheep of a member keep on keeping on with the sacrificial/difficult life of being a member of the LDS church?

While the LDS church does require much time dedicated to the church, I do not think this means that members do more than the average person in terms of helping the world, or our fellow humans. (And I would question how seriously many members take that covenant to give all of the time and talents to the building up of the church... smile).

In fact it may be that members do less when it comes to helping the greater community because so much of their time is spent working for the church. I do not know, but I do know in my personal life, and for those I know, since letting go of the church I have had much more time and money to contribute to other causes that are important to me.

I'm with Moniker... what do you think is difficult about being a member of the LDS church?

~dancer~

[_mentalgymnast]

The church requires a good deal more sacrifice of the rank and file than many/most other religious institutions. You can find exceptions, sure. My point is, however, that why would a automaton, non-thinking sheep of a member keep on keeping on with the sacrificial/difficult life of being a member of the LDS church?

Well, that's precisely what I'm asking you, for the second time now. What precisely is difficult for LDS? I am asking with all sincerity. I promise!

This isn't my list, it's from a site where someone was complaining about all the stuff they had to do as a Mormon before they left the church:

Repent
Love the Lord
Love one another
Receive the Holy Ghost
Walk in the Spirit
Receive your Endowments
Go to the temple often
Do Genealogy
Get your 4 generations done
Get your years supply
Rotate it
Conduct personal interviews
Sanctify your marriage
Provoke your husband/wife to righteousness
Pay your tithing
Pay fast offering
Remember to fast
Obey word of wisdom
Attend all three meetings
Don’t shop on Sunday’s
Study scriptures daily
Hold family prayer
Read Book of Mormon
Hold family home evening
Do visiting teaching
Do home teaching
Cleanliness is nest to Godliness
Prepare your sons for a mission
Put together a 72 hr. Emergency Kit
Support a mission
Be Baptized
Fellowship
Go on a mission
Support missionary work
Listen to Conference
Fill Welfare assignments
Stay out of Debt Read the Ensign
Forgive
Support Scouting
Love that neighbor
Read to your children
Develop your talents
Write a journal
Attend homemaking night
Go to preparation meeting
Read Priesthood lesson
Read Relief Society lesson
Read Sunday School lesson
Date your spouse
Keep romance alive
Multiply and replenish the earth
Sacrifice
Wear temple garments day and night
Always say yes to church callings
Endure to the end in righteousness
Keep your thoughts clean
Read the Book of Mormon by the end of the year.

There are others that would add more or take away from the list. This is probably pretty standard though. Life as a member of the LDS church is unique in what is required of a person who claims to be fully invested/involved in the church.

Regards,
MG

[_truth dancer]

Hey MG...

I will have to sort of disagree with your list. :-(

Yes, the church wants devotion and time and money. No question about this. It can be exhausting for sure! I'm right with you here. And there are a few items on your list that are not easy, like going on a mission.

But seriously, how many folks actually do all the things they are "supposed" to? ;-)

Dedicated believers may need some meds to help with depression, being overwhelmed, and guilt for not being able to do all the stuff asked of them, and they may need to stock up on energy drinks to get through the day (smile), but while this list is a beginning of all the stuff LDS members are supposed to do, none are required for membership, and only a couple are required for a TR.

I think the biggest difference between the LDS church vs others is that the LDS church is more focused on itself where other churches are more focused on the community/world.

I have a sense that in some places this is starting to change somewhat. I know of more and more wards that are focusing on expanding their concern for others outside the LDS community, still, the focus is on the building up of the church which means ones energy, time, and money go to the church rather than other causes.


~dancer~

[_ozemc]

Thoughts? Comments? Insights? Questions? Disagreements?

Could I let this go by without commenting? Of course not.

I am perfectly willing to allow the prophet to run the church. I wish for greater transparency for the financials, mainly because it makes the leaders look bad, not because I think they're skimming the tithing funds.

What I object to is those who say the prophet is supposed to run my life, to tell me where to send my children to school, to tell me that I cannot work outside my home, to tell me what techniques I can use when I'm making love with my husband, to tell me what I can say when I'm in bed, to tell me what pills I can take and what pills aren't okay, to tell me what I can drink and what I can't, to tell me how many earring holes I can have in my ears, to tell me any of a huge number of things I can and cannot do.

I wish the prophet would stick to running the church, and leave off with trying to run my life.

And yes, I am grumpy tonight. There's a party going on at the ward, and I'm not well enough to go. BLEAH!

For some reason the song "2525" runs through my head ....

(For those of you too young to remember, here are the lyrics):

In the year 2525
If man is still alive
If woman can survive they may find

In the year 3535
Ain't gonna need to tell the truth, tell no lies
Everything you think do and say
Is in the pill you took today

In the year 4545
You ain't gonna need your teeth won't need your eyes
You won't find a thing to chew
Nobody's gonna look at you

In the year 5555
Your arms hangin' limp at your sides
Your legs got nothin' to do
Some machine's doing that for you

In the year 6565
You won't need no husband, won't need no wife
You'll pick your son, pick your daughter too
From the bottom of a long glass tube

In the year 7510
If God's a comin' He oughta make it by then
Maybe He'll look around Himself and say
Guess it's time for the judgement day

In the year 8510
God is gonna shake His mighty head
He'll either say I'm pleased where man has been
Or tear it down and start again woh oh

In the year 9595
I'm kinda wonderin' if man is gonna be alive
He's takin everything this old earth can give
And he ain't put back nothin woh oh

Now it's been ten thousand years
Man has cried a billion tears
For what he never knew
Now man's reign is through

But through eternal night
The twinkling of starlight
So very far away
Maybe it's only yesterday

In the year 2525
If man is still alive
If woman can survive, they may find......

[_Tidejwe]

"new tbm guy"

Heh, it's funny you classify me as a TBM, but I suppose such classifications are relative . . . [I'm] Definitely not a Traditional believing Mormon, but if you want to label me as a TRUE believing Mormon, I suppose that's subject to semantics...

I've just discovered what the term "NOM" is that you guys have been using here (Hey! I'm new here!). That would fit me pretty perfectly. Definition from the newordermormons.com website:

...no longer believe some (or much) of the dogma or doctrines of the LDS Church, but who want to maintain membership for cultural, social, or even spiritual reasons. New Order Mormons recognize both good and bad in the Church, and have determined that the Church does not have to be perfect in order to remain useful...

Yes, that is me. I am far from a TBM...Honestly I think there's a good chance I would no longer officially be LDS if there were no cultural and societal influences...though it's possible. There are some experiences, and "spiritual" reasons involved as well so I'm not positive on the matter.

This thread was created for fun explaining the only way I can really believe in the organization of the church as a NOM not necessarily because I'm trying to be some TBM apologist. I was interested in reading other's insights on the concept. I mean it OBVIOUS to anyone who's actually read church history that the church isn't "true" and infallible in the way they try to indoctrinate us.

Just thought I would clarify that before more people start to get the impression based on this thread that I'm some kind of TBM apologist or something. Read my post history in this group and you'll realize that is most definitely not the case.

[_Yoda]

I've just discovered what the term "NOM" is that you guys have been using here (Hey! I'm new here!). That would fit me pretty perfectly. Definition from the newordermormons.com website:

Quote:
...no longer believe some (or much) of the dogma or doctrines of the LDS Church, but who want to maintain membership for cultural, social, or even spiritual reasons. New Order Mormons recognize both good and bad in the Church, and have determined that the Church does not have to be perfect in order to remain useful...

Welcome to the board, Tide! by the way, I fit into this category as well.

;)