The Handcarts Again..

[_The Nehor]

First of all the trek was not unrelenting misery.

They believed what they were doing was worth it.

And you base this assessment on what % of how many journals read?

I'm guessing in the neighborhood of 20 read, give or take 5.

[_Inconceivable]

Thanks for the heads up on burrying fake children and the link to the Trek Dolls.

Buy a doll so it can be burried. But don't mention the daft naivity of parents that would drag their children along a treacherous journey. Imagine what hell the parents were going through when they realized what hellish circumstances they had put their dear children in. No mention.

My family comes through the Willie blood line. One of the horrific moments described is when the company bringing up the rear finds the shallow graves dug up by starving wolves. Pretty much a scene out of a Freddie Kruger movie.

These are called "anchor" moments. You find something that weakens your emotional state and then you suggest whatever concept you what like to strengthen, create or destroy - fear, anxiety or even common sense. In the wrong hands you would call it cultish.

[_Jason Bourne]

You made no reference whatsoever about the Reptilian Overlords and their adamantium shackles.

I'm serious, you klingon, moksha (although that was kind of funny).

They will attempt to impress upon my kids that these good people were faithful latter day saints that never waivered in their testimony of the church. And they should follow their example. When in reality, they were just dedicated to keep themselves and their families alive. Many died of exposure, feeling, I imagine, betrayed and abandoned. What a travesty.

Their example wasn't an intelligent one at all - they were duped. Sadly, it was trusting in those that should have been more trustworthy.

In reality you really don't know your jaded view it what they felt, went through or thought. However, based on the records they left in their journals I think you really don;t know what you are talking about.

Most of them believed quite strongly and were happy with what they did not with standing their trials. Read their journals.

[Guest]

Nehor mentioned being concerned for those we've never met. Well, I often am concerned for those I've never met!

Jason says we can't concern ourselves with adults that wrote in journals how pleased they were that they made the trek.

I think the problem with both of these statements is that there were children involved. It is appropriate to pity any child that was taken on such an arduous journey and quite possibly suffered extreme hardship, or death, because of their parents' religious fanaticism. It is appropriate to concern ourselves with any little person that does not have the ability to fend for themselves and rely upon their parents to make informed, reasonable decisions as it regards to their care.

I have pity for these kids. Not so much the parents. If the parents were completely unaware of the treacherous journey ahead of them my sympathy extends to them as well. Yet, really it's hard to pity any parent that would place their child in such a position.

[_Jason Bourne]

Here's a link to the official manual for treks.

The most disturbing activity:

I do not think this is official meaning from LDS headquarters. Looks like it is something some stake or ward put together,

[_The Nehor]

Nehor mentioned being concerned for those we've never met. Well, I often am concerned for those I've never met!

Jason says we can't concern ourselves with adults that wrote in journals how pleased they were that they made the trek.

I think the problem with both of these statements is that there were children involved. It is appropriate to pity any child that was taken on such an arduous journey and quite possibly suffered extreme hardship, or death, because of their parents' religious fanaticism. It is appropriate to concern ourselves with any little person that does not have the ability to fiend for themselves and rely upon their parents to make informed, reasonable decisions as it regards to their care.

I have pity for these kids. Not so much the parents. If the parents were completely unaware of the treacherous journey ahead of them my sympathy extends to them as well. Yet, really it's hard to pity any parent that would place their child in such a position.

Hugh Nibley talked to his great-grandfather about crossing the plains (he was a child at the time they crossed). When asked what it was like, he said it was great. Like being out of school. They loved it.

Are we forgetting that infant mortality was pretty high anyways?

[_Jason Bourne]

I understand, at least to some degree the dynamics that brought the early LDS members to SLC.

Having said this, there is something twisted about praising the decisions of parents who make choices knowing their children will be harmed and quite possibly die.

Are you referring to parents who let their kids go on reenactments? If yes this seems silly. If you speak of the pioneer parents I think you need to re think what you said. Many of these people were living in poverty and squalor ini England. Immigration offered them a chance at a better liofe, hope of land ownership and so on. You don't think that these people hoped to give their children a better life? Maybe the risks were well worth it. And oh by the way, let us not forget that millions immigrated from Europe to the US that were not LDS and many many went west and suffered as well. Are you equally as critical?

I shudder when I hear people claim their ancestors, whose children froze to death on the trek, were happy to have made the trek because they were obedient to the Lord and knew they would be together again someday. Of course to admit they made a mistake or even entertain the idea the church was not true would not have been a possibility, so I understand their need to continue to believe. Still, the message sent to youth that obedience is more important than the life of one's children doesn't set well with me.... remnants of Abraham. (sigh)

Today, when we hear stories of parent consciously putting their children in harms way we are not so eager to cheer and honor them.

I am not sure this is what I hear. All seemed sad to lose family and did not count it lightly. Life was a lot harder back then TD. Many people were willing to leave native land, home and what may have been comforts for a better life. I for one am grateful to the LDS and non LDS immigrant and pioneers who had the guts to open and settle the great American West. They were not afraid of trial and tribulation and were willing to give up being all cozy and comfy and safe.

[_Doctor Steuss]

As long as this type of thing went on, I'd be groovy with my kids going:

--------------

Pioneer Camp, Wednesday, May 26, 1847

To Marshall O.P. Rockwell:

Sir – You are hereby commanded to bring, wherever found, the body of Col. George Mills, before the Right Reverend Bishop [Edson] Whipple, at his Quarters, there to answer to the following charge, viz.: -- That of emitting in meeting on Sunday last, a sound, a posteriori, (from his seat of honor) somewhat resembling the rumble of distant thunder, or the heavy discharge of artillery, thereby endangering the steadiness of the olfactory nerves of those present as well as diverting their minds from the discourse of the speaker.

---------------

Letter to Rockwell for a mock trial while the Saints were traveling (around the time they reached Chimney Rock). As cited in Schindler’s biography of OPR, Second Edition, pg. 157. Original in possession of the LDS Church Historical Department.

[_Jason Bourne]

Buy a doll so it can be burried. But don't mention the daft naïveté of parents that would drag their children along a treacherous journey. Imagine what hell the parents were going through when they realized what hellish circumstances they had put their dear children in. No mention.

Sure

All lthe people that conquered the US forntier should have jus tstayed home and left is all unsettled

This really is one of the dumber threads I have seen. Were you really looking hard for another stick to beat the CHurch with? Shame on you for questioning the motives of these families that were brave enough to take on the unknown. Shame on you for disparaging their sacrafice and efforts in settlignthe Great Basin of the USA.

[_Moniker]

Nehor mentioned being concerned for those we've never met. Well, I often am concerned for those I've never met!

Jason says we can't concern ourselves with adults that wrote in journals how pleased they were that they made the trek.

I think the problem with both of these statements is that there were children involved. It is appropriate to pity any child that was taken on such an arduous journey and quite possibly suffered extreme hardship, or death, because of their parents' religious fanaticism. It is appropriate to concern ourselves with any little person that does not have the ability to fiend for themselves and rely upon their parents to make informed, reasonable decisions as it regards to their care.

I have pity for these kids. Not so much the parents. If the parents were completely unaware of the treacherous journey ahead of them my sympathy extends to them as well. Yet, really it's hard to pity any parent that would place their child in such a position.

Hugh Nibley talked to his great-grandfather about crossing the plains (he was a child at the time they crossed). When asked what it was like, he said it was great. Like being out of school. They loved it.

Are we forgetting that infant mortality was pretty high anyways?

I understand that there were many brave pioneers that endured hardships during that time. My issue, with this in particular, is how well suited they were for the journey and that the Church elders felt that even though the Willie party would be leaving too late that divine intervention would be enough to ensure their safe arrival.

What did George D. Grant say of the condition of the Martin company:

It is not of much use for me to attempt to give a description of the situation of these people, for this you will learn from [others]; but you can imagine between five and six hundred men, women and children, worn down by drawing hand carts through snow and mud; fainting by the wayside; falling, chilled by the cold; children crying, their limbs stiffened by cold, their feet bleeding and some of them bare to snow and frost. The sight is almost too much for the stoutest of us; but we go on doing all we can, not doubting nor despairing.

I can give as much sympathy to those children as I desire to. Don't try to chide me that it is not appropriate. These were people led by religious passions to make this trek and encouraged to do so because the faith that God would protect them! That is problematic for me!

Are there other stories that are not LDS related where I can too feel great pain and sympathy for those that suffered hardship? Yep! Why can't I do so in this instance?