Dynasitc Marriages-Doctrinal Question

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_rcrocket

Post by _rcrocket »

harmony wrote:
Oliver was in a position to know, Crock. You aren't.


As I thought. This is the sole basis for your belief.

Dear readers, here is yet another example of one who is not willing to weigh and sift sources about about a controversial and hated religion. One for which most of you who are reading this have withered in the faith from the heat of the oppression God has always promised would follow this Church. Not only have you withered, but you're reduced to anonymous hit pieces.

And then Liz is just willing to accept Wiki? Astounding.

One must examine things in context. Oliver found his way back to the Church and requested re-baptism. To do so, that means that he accepted Joseph Smith's teachings, accepted the circumstances for his original excommunication, expressed remorse and moved on. To cite him as the only source for Alger's relationship with Joseph Smith is just to be weak.
_Yoda

Post by _Yoda »

Bob wrote:And then Liz is just willing to accept Wiki? Astounding.


You misread me, Bob. Either that, or I failed to make my position clear. I utilized Wiki as a start source. Did you click on the link? The sub sources check out.

Also, growing up in the Church, the outline events as listed in Wiki coincide with what I have been taught as a Church member.

I asked you, point blank, Bob, if you knew of other sources that would counter this. You say that this source is wrong. OK. I'm willing to accept that possibility.

Point me in the direction of some sources that are more valid.
_Jason Bourne
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Post by _Jason Bourne »

rcrocket wrote:
liz3564 wrote:What do you feel would prompt this type of decision from the brethren? Are you saying that it was just some sort of wild notion on their part? That they thought it would be a nice thing to do, and that Joseph had no relationship with Fanny other than the fact that Fanny was a maid/child care provider for Joseph and Emma?

And, wasn't Joseph's relationship with Fanny the main catalyst for the contention between Oliver and Joseph?



I'm waiting for Harmony to back up her claim about Alger; surely she has a basis for her claim.

Before 1894, posthumous sealings were done with little or no basis.

Was it the "main catalyst?" On whose statement?


http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/02-FannyAlger.htm

Benjamin Johnson, a close friend of Joseph Smith, described Fanny as, “varry nice and comly, [to whom] everyone Seemed partial for the ameability of her character.” She is generally considered the first plural wife of Joseph Smith. Although undocumented, the marriage of Fanny and Joseph most likely took place in Kirtland, Ohio sometime in 1833. She would have been sixteen years old. At the time, Fanny was living in the Smith home, perhaps helping Emma with house work and the children. Ann Eliza Webb recalls, “Mrs. Smith had an adopted daughter, a very pretty, pleasing young girl, about seventeen years old. She was extremely fond of her; no mother could be more devoted, and their affection for each other was a constant object of remark, so absorbing and genuine did it seem”.

Joseph kept his marriage to Fanny out of the view of the public, and his wife Emma. Chauncey Webb recounts Emma’s later discovery of the relationship: “Emma was furious, and drove the girl, who was unable to conceal the consequences of her celestial relation with the prophet, out of her house”. Ann Eliza again recalls: “...it was felt that [Emma] certainly must have had some very good reason for her action. By degrees it became whispered about that Joseph’s love for his adopted daughter was by no means a paternal affection, and his wife, discovering the fact, at once took measures to place the girl beyond his reach...Since Emma refused decidedly to allow her to remain in her house...my mother offered to take her until she could be sent to her relatives...”

Book of Mormon witness, Oliver Cowdery, felt the relationship was something other than a marriage. He referred to it as “A dirty, nasty, filthy affair...” To calm rumors regarding Fanny’s relationship with Joseph, the church quickly adopted a “Chapter of Rules for Marriage among the Saints”, which declared, “Inasmuch as this church of Christ has been reproached with...polygamy; we declare that we believe, that one man should have one wife...” This “Article on Marriage” was canonized and published in the Doctrine & Covenants. In 1852, the doctrine of polygamy was publicly announced, thus ending eighteen years of secret practice. “The Article on Marriage” became obsolete and was later removed.

Fanny stayed with relatives in nearby Mayfield until about the time Joseph fled Kirtland for Missouri. Benjamin Johnson remembers: “Soon after the Prophet[‘s] flight in the winter of ’37...The Alger Family left for the west and Stop[ped] in Indiana for a time...Soon [Fanny] Married to one of the Citizens of ther & altho she never left the State She did not turn from the Church nor from her friendship for the Prophet while She lived..” Benjamin continued, “And I Can now See that as at Nauvoo – So at Kirtland That the Suspicion or Knowledge of the Prophets Plural Relations was one of the Causes of Apostacy & disruption at Kirtland altho at the time there was little said publickly upon the Subject.” Fanny lived the rest of her life in Indiana with her children and husband, Solomon Custer.


FS: www.familysearch.org
MP: Mormon Polygamy: A History
ME: Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith
ISL: In Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith
DC: Doctrine and Covenants


FANNY ALGER: MARRIAGE, MP pg 5, ISL pgs 25 – 26, 34, ME pg 66; EMMA, ISL pgs 34 – 35; RUMORS, MP pgs 6, 10, 85, ME pg 66, ISL pgs 28, 36; INDIANA, ISL pgs 37, 39, 41




Fanny Alger
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Fanny Alger (born 30 September 1816 in Rehoboth, Massachusetts, died 29 November 1889 in Indianapolis, Indiana) is believed to be the first plural wife of Joseph Smith, Jr.

Alger's parents were neighbors of the Smith's, and Alger lived with Smith and his wife, Emma.[1] Chauncey and Ann Eliza Webb later recalled that rumors had been whispered while Alger lived with the Smiths about Smith and Alger.[2] Alger stopped living with the Smiths as a result of a fallout with Emma, after Emma found Joseph and Fanny in a compromising situation, and was dismissed as their housekeeper. By some accounts, she was pregnant with Joseph Smith's child. [2]

Alger then lived with relatives in Mayfield, Ohio until 1837, when she moved with her relatives to Indiana where she married Solomon Custer, with whom she had nine children.[3] When asked about her relationship with Smith after Smith's death, she is reported to have said: "That is all a matter of my own, and I have nothing to communicate."[3]

The first contemporary reference to the alleged relationship was in a letter dated January 21, 1838. Oliver Cowdery wrote to his brother Warren stating that Smith had inappropriately spent time alone with Alger, referring to it as a "dirty, nasty, filthy affair."[3] During this time Cowdery was estranged from Smith and they were disagreeing over leadership issues in the new movement.[4]

In 1903, Benjamin F. Johnson, a patriarch in the Church in Utah, wrote a letter to George S. Gibbs. After repeating rumors about the relationship, Johnson alleges that "without doubt in my mind, Fannie Alger was, at Kirtland, the Prophet's first plural wife."[1] Johnson also claimed that although Alger did not join the Saints in Utah, "she did not turn from the Church nor from her friendship for the Prophet while she lived"(sic).[1]

See also: Joseph Smith, Jr. and polygamy

[edit] Genetic Testing

In 2005, Ugo Perego performed genetic research in an attempt to verify the paternity of several people alleged to be children of Joseph Smith through alleged plural wives. Orrison Smith, the first son of Fanny Alger, was found not to be Joseph Smith's son. Four other likely candidates were also ruled out. Presently genetic research has reveal no descendent of Joseph Smith through any woman other than his first, and only publicly aknowledged wife, Emma Smith. Emma Smith bore Joseph nine children and his descendents through her number in the hundreds today. <[1]>

[edit] Footnotes

1. ^ a b c Johnson (1903).
2. ^ a b Fanny Alger (Remembering)
3. ^ a b c Fanny Alger (Wives)
4. ^ Cowdery, Oliver

[edit] References

* Compton, Todd (1996), "Fanny Alger Smith Custer, Mormonism's First Plural Wife?", Journal of Mormon History 22 (1): 174–207, <http://content.lib.utah.edu/u?/jmh,18163>.
* Compton, Todd (1997). In Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith. Signature Books. ISBN-X.
* "Cowdery, Oliver". Encyclopedia of Mormonism 1. (1992). Macmillan Publishing Company.
* Fanny Alger. Remembering the wives of Joseph Smith. Referenced as Fanny Alger (Remembering).
* Fanny Alger. The Wives of Joseph Smith. Referenced as Fanny Alger (Wives).
* Johnson, Benjamin (1903). Letter to George S. Gibbs. Retrieved on 2006-08-02.
* Newell,, Linda King; Valeen Tippetts Avery (1994). Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith. University of Illinois Press. ISBN.
* Van Wagoner, Richard S. (1992). Mormon Polygamy: A History. Signature Books. ISBN.



From Todd Compton:


http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Oracle/ ... lger7.html

The Date of Fanny Alger's Marriage
Anderson and Faulring (pp. 78-79) agree that Fanny Alger married Joseph Smith in Kirtland, but propose an 1835 date for her marriage to Joseph, rather than February or March 1833, as my book suggests. (In Sacred Loneliness, 32-33.) To do this they reject the clear witness of Mosiah Hancock reporting Levi Hancock, and assert that Benjamin Johnson is a more reliable authority on this question.

Both Mosiah and Benjamin were writing late reminiscences, Mosiah writing in 1896, Benjamin writing in 1903.[62] Both sources are second hand, as neither Mosiah nor Benjamin witnessed the marriage of Smith and Alger. However, Mosiah, Fanny Alger's full cousin, had as his informant someone who was actually present at the marriage of Smith and Alger, his father Levi, and who in fact performed the ceremony. Furthermore, Anderson and Faulring agree that Mosiah/Levi Hancock are "no doubt correct in general circumstances of Fanny's Kirtland sealing." (p. 78). Nevertheless, they unaccountably contend that "Benjamin's recollections furnish the most reliable chronology available." (Ibid.)

They argue that Benjamin, as a teenager in Kirtland, was a first-hand witness of Kirtland polygamy circumstances, while Mosiah was very young. However, Benjamin as a teenager in Kirtland clearly heard only rumors of the Smith-Alger marriage, so he is as much a second-hand witness as Mosiah. Mosiah's source, however, his father Levi, was a first-hand witness to the Smith-Alger marriage, while Johnson had no similar "inside" source, no witness to the marriage ceremony. And the chronology of Levi clearly places the marriage of Smith-Alger back in early 1833. If Anderson and Faulring were to reject Levi/Mosiah Hancock completely, they might have a more logical case for rejecting the 1833 date.

A careful look at Benjamin Johnson's statements shows how he was dependent on rumor of the Smith-Alger marriage. "In 1835 at Kirtland I learned from my Sisters Husband Lyman R. Shirman, who was close to the Prophet and Recieved it from him. 'That the ancient order of plural marriage was again to be practiced by the Church . . ." Johnson himself was not close to Joseph Smith at this stage. "Altho there then lived with his Family a Neighbors daughter Fanny Alger . . . and it was whispered eaven then that Joseph Loved her . . ." Note that Johnson only heard rumors, whispers.

There is trouble between Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery, "and whisper Said it was Relating to a girl then living in his [Smith's] Family." Once again, Johnson is reporting rumor, "whisper." "And I was afterwords told by Warren Parish That he himself & Oliver Cowdery did know that Joseph had Fanny Alger as a wife for They were Spied upon & found together."[63] Once again, Benjamin reports what Parrish told him, which is valuable, as I have mentioned that second hand evidence can be usable. But Johnson's source, Parrish, is not bearing witness to the beginning of the Smith-Alger marriage, the ceremony.

Johnson does not contradict Mosiah/Levi Hancock. He merely reports that he, not an intimate of Joseph Smith in 1835, began to hear rumors of polygamy and rumors of Joseph's marriage to Fanny at that time. This obviously does not preclude a secret ceremony in 1833, but actually fits in with that picture. Even if Johnson had contradicted Mosiah/Levi Hancock, Mosiah and Levi, as close relatives of Fanny, and Levi with first-hand knowledge of the marriage, are witnesses closer to the truth than Johnson was. Johnson's account of the rumors and whispers of the marriage is valuable, but it does not deny Mosiah and Levi Hancock's account of the ceremony.

If you successfully discount Mosiah/Levi's credibility, you might get rid of the earlier dating for the Alger-Smith marriage, but then you lose your best evidence for a formal marriage with ceremony. So Anderson and Faulring's attempt to redate the ceremony by arguing that Mosiah/Levi are unreliable only on this point is very unconvincing.
_Jason Bourne
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Post by _Jason Bourne »

rcrocket wrote:
harmony wrote:
Oliver was in a position to know, Crock. You aren't.


As I thought. This is the sole basis for your belief.

Dear readers, here is yet another example of one who is not willing to weigh and sift sources about about a controversial and hated religion. One for which most of you who are reading this have withered in the faith from the heat of the oppression God has always promised would follow this Church. Not only have you withered, but you're reduced to anonymous hit pieces.

And then Liz is just willing to accept Wiki? Astounding.

One must examine things in context. Oliver found his way back to the Church and requested re-baptism. To do so, that means that he accepted Joseph Smith's teachings, accepted the circumstances for his original excommunication, expressed remorse and moved on. To cite him as the only source for Alger's relationship with Joseph Smith is just to be weak.


Bob

YOu know full well there are numerous other sources for the Falger affair then Cowdry. The Wiki item I posted also provides other references. I also provided other sources. Mormon Enigma documents this issue quite well and is cited in the linf from Wive's of Joseph Smith. Both Compton and Bushman also discuss the relationship. Bushman of course believes it the first plural marriage. Are you ready to diss and dismiss these resources? If yes why?

That said the fact that Cowdry came back does not mean that Joseph Smith did not have an affair, or marriage, with Fanny. Oliver could have forgiven Joseph Smith for the sin, or he could have decided it was a valid marriage under the doctrine of plural marriage. So to draw a cause and effect and conclude that Oliver decided that Joseph Smith did not have the affair is erroneous. Also, Quinn notes in Mormon Hierarchy.(I know you despise Quinn but you can argue with him about it) that Oliver may have been more angry with Joseph Smith about Fanny due to a similar affair and desire that Oliver had for a second wife around the same time. Apparently Joseph Smith did not sanction Oliver's affair/marriage so Oliver was not about to give Joseph Smith wiggle room regarding the "filthy Affair."
_Yoda

Post by _Yoda »

In further retrospect, I take issue with this statement:

Bob wrote:Dear readers, here is yet another example of one who is not willing to weigh and sift sources about about a controversial and hated religion. One for which most of you who are reading this have withered in the faith from the heat of the oppression God has always promised would follow this Church. Not only have you withered, but you're reduced to anonymous hit pieces.


I have done no such thing. I specifically created this thread because I had a sincere effort to learn more about a tenet of the Church which has bothered me for years. I also PM'd you and specifically asked you participate based on your knowledge of Church history and published material. My actions here are sincere. Please don't suggest that I created this thread as simply a smear campaign. That is not my intent at all, and that should be evident by both the OP and by my comments.

Bob wrote:And then Liz is just willing to accept Wiki? Astounding.

I already addressed this in my prior post.

Bob wrote:One must examine things in context. Oliver found his way back to the Church and requested re-baptism. To do so, that means that he accepted Joseph Smith's teachings, accepted the circumstances for his original excommunication, expressed remorse and moved on.

Fair enough. I hadn't looked at it in those terms.

Bob wrote: To cite him as the only source for Alger's relationship with Joseph Smith is just to be weak.

What are your thoughts on the additional sources that Jason cited?
_Jason Bourne
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Post by _Jason Bourne »

Bob wrote: To cite him as the only source for Alger's relationship with Joseph Smith is just to be weak.

What are your thoughts on the additional sources that Jason cited?[/quote]


I predict Bob will dismiss them because they are from the internet (even though the books I reference are not) and tell me I am a weak kneed anonymous hyopcrite-like he has said about many here about 500 times.

But just to head him off-Bob, we know you think a number of us here are weak kneed simletons and hypocrites that are satans spawn.

Guess what. We don't care anymore. To repeat your favorite mantra is a waste of time and band width. And it seems that rather than discuss the issues you want to keep saying such things. Maybe it is because you cannot refute the issue.

That said, we know you are no dummy. Please tell us:

1: What is your opinion and conclusion about Fanny Alger and Joseph Smith
2: If you do not think they had an affair do you thing they were married?
3: How was it valid if it was pre 1835?
4: If yuo think nothing happened do you have sources that dispute the sources we have posted?
_Yoda

Post by _Yoda »

Bob wrote:Please tell us:

1: What is your opinion and conclusion about Fanny Alger and Joseph Smith
2: If you do not think they had an affair do you thing they were married?
3: How was it valid if it was pre 1835?
4: If you think nothing happened do you have sources that dispute the sources we have posted?


I sincerely hope that Bob will be willing to answer these questions. I am sincerely interested in his responses.

Come on, Bob. You've already "called us to repentance". Teach a few of us heathens who are willing to be taught. ;)
_truth dancer
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Post by _truth dancer »

Hi Jason,

Just to clear a couple things up.

Joseph Smith never crowned himself King of the World. It was King of Israel on Earth. I think there is a big difference.

Joseph Smith never claimed that he was judge for this dispensation. Brigham Young claimed that about Joseph Smith after Joseph Smith was dead.


I see someone crowing himself "King of Israel on Earth" the same as "King of the world," but I should be more precise. ;-)

My point was, that from what I understand, Joseph Smith got to a place where he did think he was the one who would usher in the second coming of Christ, no?

He claimed to be second only to Jesus Christ right?

I was reading the biography of Joseph Smith's son David, and there is some fascinating information about how the church reconciled the belief that Joseph Smith would be the one to welcome Christ, with his death.

~dancer~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
_Jason Bourne
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Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 8:00 pm

Post by _Jason Bourne »


I see someone crowing himself "King of Israel on Earth" the same as "King of the world," but I should be more precise. ;-)



Ok but I am not sure how one equates the two. Clearly Joseph Smith viewed this as a religous and theocratic thing not a world domination thing.
My point was, that from what I understand, Joseph Smith got to a place where he did think he was the one who would usher in the second coming of Christ, no?


He believed that he MIGHT usher in the second coming.
He claimed to be second only to Jesus Christ right?


No he did not claim this at all. If you have a source for this I would love to see it.
_truth dancer
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Post by _truth dancer »

Ok but I am not sure how one equates the two. Clearly Joseph Smith viewed this as a religous and theocratic thing not a world domination thing.


Hey Jason,

My understanding is that Joseph Smith thought Christ would come in his glory, the second coming where every knee shall bow and tongue confess, and Joseph Smith would be the King, under the reign of Jesus.

Did I misunderstand?

In terms of Joseph Smith thinking he was "all that and then some" (smile)...

For starters:

Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet. You know my daily walk and conversation. I am in the bosom of a virtuous and good people. How I do love to hear the wolves howl! When they can get rid of me, the devil will also go.


http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/ser ... denial.htm

~dancer~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
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