An Interesting thread on astronomy at MADB

[_Chap]

I don't think they deserve one inch of slack. They set themselves up as men in the know, and now their reputations must suffer for their presumption and ignorance.

But isn't that assuming all their stuff was prophecy rather than the times they were just men making incredible speculations?

They both of them signally failed to give their audiences the slightest indication of what they intended as prophecy, and what was not. Peronally, I find it all much of a muchness.

[_Dr. Shades]

But isn't that assuming all their stuff was prophecy rather than the times they were just men making incredible speculations?

That's just it. They themselves thought all their stuff was prophecy. This whole "he was speaking as a man" thing is a fairly recent invention of the Internet Mormons.

[_Scottie]

Didn't BY make some kind of statement that everything he uttered should be considered as if God himself spoke it? Or something to that effect?

[Guest]

Sethbag says on the MADB:

Everyone else - the notion that this Earth came from somewhere else a few thousand years ago and joined this Solar System after the "fall" of Adam, does not agree with scientific observation and theories of solar system development and the history of this planet, that are well supported. If you guys wish to believe Brigham Young instead of the scientists, that's your prerogative, but I have to ask: why draw the line at disbelieving BY about Moon Quakers, but believe him on Earth zipping out of Kolob's orbit to our Sun? It's obvious he was wont to pronounce on matters beyond his ken. Why believe him on this one?

Indeed, why should we believe isolated (and therefore nondoctrinal) statements of the prophets when the Church says we shouldn't? But, you might point out, it's printed in the Ensign which is a doctrinal work. True enough. But it also has to be presented as doctrine. Such is not necessarily the case here.

For example, a lesson might say..."Teach the children that the Earth moved through space from an orbit around Kolob to an orbit around our sun when Adam fell."

Or an article might simple state "The Earth moved through space from an orbit around Kolob to an orbit around our sun when Adam fell."

In various places throughout the article, portions of it are prefaced by "Abraham was shown" and "Abraham was taught" etc. However, the part in question states....

According to President Brigham Young, Abraham 5:13 [Abr. 5:13] also means that before the Fall of Adam, the earth was near the very throne of God. But when the Fall occurred, the earth literally fell or moved from the physical presence of God to its present position in our solar system. When all the effects of the Fall of Adam are finally overcome, the earth will literally move back into the presence of God. Here are President Young’s words:

So this is only according to BY, possibly making it one of many possible interpretations. Is it, however, a doctrine according to the Church?

Notice also the verse that supposedly verifies this fall through space.....

But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the time that thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely die. Now I, Abraham, saw that it was after the Lord’s time, which was after the time of Kolob; for as yet the Gods had not appointed unto Adam his reckoning.
Abraham 5:13

This shows even more that this 'fall through space' is BY's opinion and not doctrine. He's simply assuming that because the episode in the Garden was according to the Lord's time, then the earth must have been physically near Kolob.

In other words, no need for Sethbag to get his panties in a knot and no need for LDS of scientific bent to be worried.

[_bcspace]

That's just it. They themselves thought all their stuff was prophecy.

This doesn't appear to be any type of prophecy.

This whole "he was speaking as a man" thing is a fairly recent invention of the Internet Mormons.

It's really been around since at least D&C 107 wherein we find that the FP and Qo12 are equal in authority. This forms the basis for the long standing LDS concept of official doctrine. They all have to agree.

No such thing as "internet Mormons" by the way.

[_Dr. Shades]

That's just it. They themselves thought all their stuff was prophecy.

This doesn't appear to be any type of prophecy.

It doesn't appear that way to you, but that's only because you know more about astronomy than the Lord's moutpieces did. It appeared that way to the prophets themselves and everyone in their audience.

This whole "he was speaking as a man" thing is a fairly recent invention of the Internet Mormons.

It's really been around since at least D&C 107 wherein we find that the FP and Qo12 are equal in authority. This forms the basis for the long standing LDS concept of official doctrine. They all have to agree.

The FP and the Qo12 all agreed on the "Fall from Kolob" thing, so according to your logic it is, indeed, official doctrine. So we're back to square one.

No such thing as "internet Mormons" by the way.

Oh really? Did Noah's flood cover every square inch of planet Earth, or didn't it?

[_Sethbag]

BCSpace, actually I wasn't even going after the Church for having this stupid teaching. I was going after some of the believers who posted in that thread, who apparently believe it.

My main point was really that these "Prophets" didn't know what they were talking about, and since probably none of those posters feel the need to believe that there are people dressing like Quakers on the Moon, why do they feel obligated to believe this one? There's at least the inclination to discredit as personal opinions the teachings of Prophets in some areas where they have been refuted by science, why not discredit as personal opinions some of these other absurd teachings?

[_Dr. Shades]

My main point was really that these "Prophets" didn't know what they were talking about, and since probably none of those posters feel the need to believe that there are people dressing like Quakers on the Moon, why do they feel obligated to believe this one? There's at least the inclination to discredit as personal opinions the teachings of Prophets in some areas where they have been refuted by science, why not discredit as personal opinions some of these other absurd teachings?

Sethbag, you've encapsulated the viewpoint I tried to convey in my "I really struggle with polygamy" thread.

[_moksha]

It's really been around since at least D&C 107 wherein we find that the FP and Qo12 are equal in authority. This forms the basis for the long standing LDS concept of official doctrine. They all have to agree.

No such thing as "internet Mormons" by the way.

Good point, that helps to limit needing to defend many out-in-left-field statements that were clearly speculation. I suppose that leaves books written by General Authorities, although the editorial process for these books will hopefully curb any bombshells. I wish President Kimball's editors had been more aggressive when he said it was better to be dead than raped. While that undoubtedly raised all the red flags with the editors, they apparently were too meek to put the kibosh on that sentence. Probably way tougher in 2008.

[_Dr. Shades]

Good point, that helps to limit needing to defend many out-in-left-field statements that were clearly speculation.

Once again, what is "clearly speculation" to you is gospel truth to the Lord's mouthpiece that uttered it. It was also gospel truth to the Mormon audience that first heard the utterance.

I suppose that leaves books written by General Authorities, although the editorial process for these books will hopefully curb any bombshells.

So "the editorial process" Trump's the Lord's mouthpieces in the truth department? WOW--that's as good an example of Internet Mormonism as I've ever heard.

I wish President Kimball's editors had been more aggressive when he said it was better to be dead than raped. While that undoubtedly raised all the red flags with the editors, they apparently were too meek to put the kibosh on that sentence.

What makes you think it raised any red flags with the editors? They probably all accepted it as gospel truth too.