Suspend Disbelief - Grab A Magic Wand -- Poof Away Religion?

[_beastie]

I agree, RoP - but that would entail dismantling the tendency towards tribalism altogether, because that is part and parcel of what tribalism entails.

And that's the sticky point for me - tribalism is dangerous, and yet it also enhances the lives of the specific members of the tribe. They're taken care of by the tribe. Forming tribes, and being able to view other human beings as so connected to oneself as to justify acts of altruism is a fundamental part of our nature. Take that away, and what do we have? Who knows!! Human beings that would only care for their immediate family, and none others? That's what I mean by unintended consequences.

[_Ren]

I agree, RoP - but that would entail dismantling the tendency towards tribalism altogether, because that is part and parcel of what tribalism entails.

And that's the sticky point for me - tribalism is dangerous, and yet it also enhances the lives of the specific members of the tribe. They're taken care of by the tribe. Forming tribes, and being able to view other human beings as so connected to oneself as to justify acts of altruism is a fundamental part of our nature. Take that away, and what do we have? Who knows!! Human beings that would only care for their immediate family, and none others? That's what I mean by unintended consequences.

I pretty sure I see what you're saying here beastie - and I agree that it would definitely be a worry. I don't believe in 'perfect' answers. Any approach will have it's risks...

I guess this is where my 'optimistic' view of humanity comes into play - which is perhaps a naïve one, but I certainly hope not. Because otherwise, I think we are in the long run gonna be pretty much f***** no matter what anybody does...
Individuals can lead, but you still require the will of the people behind you.

I have hope that we can keep our natural tribalistic instincts, and that they can be rationally 'adjusted' to the point where we view the world as our 'tribe' - and acting like that is really considered 'true'.
I liked the joke about aliens needing to attack us to achieve that ;) LOL - maybe that's true...
But I see hope that this attitude IS being fostered in many parts of the world already. No - of course there are plenty of places where we have nothing like that attitude. And some places with a complete mis-mash of attitudes from person to person. But looking from the past to the present and looking at the global picture, I see hope for the future. Yeah, we have many bumps in the road, but I'm hopeful that the road we are on (overall - looking at the BIG BIG picture) is heading the right way.

We can easily look at various current events in the world (especially if some are going to look at their own local situation as if it is representative of world-wide trends) and think otherwise, but that could be akin to pushing our face against the scratch on the door, and not stepping back a bit to realise that - in all other respects - it is perfectly good, shiny car... (That's probably overstating my case - quite a bit in fact. But I only mean it as an analogy).


Anyway - regardless of whether you think there is anything to what I just said, hopefully I was talking to the point you were making...

[_beastie]

I hope your optimism is justified. Have you read Robert Wright's book NonZero? It develops the point you're making, and I sincerely hope his optimism is justified as well. Perhaps I will be able to be more optimistic after the bush presidency is history. ;)

[_Ren]

Have you read Robert Wright's book NonZero?

No - but I'm interested in reading it now. I'll make a point of checking it out. Thanks for the recommendation...

I think another point to be made here (I'm sure it's been made many times before, but just to reiterate) is that we can't forget the increased abilities modern technology have given us to kill, hurt and oppress other human beings. All new opportunities for greed to flourish. All new ways to deceive others.
Combine that with instant, world-wide news coverage of every little nasty thing happening on the entire globe - and suddenly I think we have to be careful about linking literally what is happening with any underlying changes (or non-changes) in human nature.

Two different people can have the same underlying 'natures'. But place different challenges / temptations / trials before them, and those underlying natures could appear to be different.

Perhaps I will be able to be more optimistic after the bush presidency is history. ;)

Haha. Yeah - I'm thinking a lot of of us will be...! (If only I could use the word 'most' with some confidence...)

[_beastie]

I think another point to be made here (I'm sure it's been made many times before, but just to reiterate) is that we can't forget the increased abilities modern technology have given us to kill, hurt and oppress other human beings. All new opportunities for greed to flourish. All new ways to deceive others.
Combine that with instant, world-wide news coverage of every little nasty thing happening on the entire globe - and suddenly I think we have to be careful about linking literally what is happening with any underlying changes (or non-changes) in human nature.

Two different people can have the same underlying 'natures'. But place different challenges / temptations / trials before them, and those underlying natures could appear to be different.

I agree. When I, personally, speak about evolutionary changes in human nature it is with the understanding that this sort of evolution takes place over millennia, and it is not an effect any of us could really detect within our lifetime, generation, or several generations. I do think that if human beings manage to survive long enough, eventually we will evolve in response to the changes we ourselves have created.

To demonstrate just how long I'm talking about, I don't think that we've had long enough as modern man to evolve yet, in terms of altering our fundamental nature.

[_Ren]

To demonstrate just how long I'm talking about, I don't think that we've had long enough as modern man to evolve yet, in terms of altering our fundamental nature.

Yeap - I see what you're saying, and I totally agree.

[_Moniker]

Ren, you most definitely are an optimist. I've always known that. ;)

I think fundamentalist religions are the source of concern and agree that if we could relegate the "truths" to the dustbin that would be helpful. Then they would just be big self-help, altruistic, meeting groups for people of like mind. Not so bad all things considered.

Beastie, I agree that we ARE the way we are because those that had the tendencies to tend to their tribe and expel other tribes ensured their survival. Even with plenty of resources there have always been tribal factions that fought.

Down in off-topic Jersey Girl started a thread about a puppy being killed by a United States Marine. I did a search to see how many news stories, blogs, etc... were HORRIFIED by this. People barely blink as "body counts" aren't done by our military and yet are in full froth mode over a puppy being tossed off a cliff. Interesting that the "enemy" is less inclined to create an emotional reaction for them than an animal. So, killing puppy is WRONG 'cause they FEEL it is. Yet, not so much of a feeling for the "enemy" -- hence it's not so wrong. This is our human nature.

[_Tarski]

Would you just poof away ignorance if you could? What if we could just rid the world of belief in astrology? How about homeopathy or 9-11 conspiracy theories? Would you just poof away illiteracy if you could?

Look here is the irony. Moromons really do want to rid the world of religion--well all of them but one. :)

[_Moniker]

Would you just poof away ignorance if you could? What if we could just rid the world of belief in astrology? How about homeopathy or 9-11 conspiracy theories? Would you just poof away illiteracy if you could?

Look here is the irony. Moromons really do want to rid the world of religion--well all of them but one. :)

Right, Mormons do want to do that!

I don't know what I'd really *poof*. Seems certain things just seem like no duhs! Yet, I'd worry about unintended consequences. I doubt it's as simple as a wave of a wand here and a twirl there. Fortunately I don't think I'll be getting a magic wand any time soon. If I do, I'll be sure to update the thread!

[_Moniker]

I should have added another option on to my poll: Just keep the ONE true religion. Forgot what discussion board I was on! :)