Polygamous women defend polygamy--or do they?

[_Mercury]

Heres the thing guys and gals. They didn't raid the compound because (gasp!) men had more than one wife. They raided it because adult males were having sex with children.

THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH POLYGAMY. if the polygs keep the focus on polygamy and not pedophilia then the bastards have won and they can gain sympathy much easier.

[_asbestosman]

I personally have heard all sorts of justifications and rationalization for abuse... I buy none of it.

Let's be clear, I'm not justifying having a 50 year old impregnate a 16 year old even if it's legal in Texas, and there is fortunately no longer a legal excuse for doing it when it comes to 15 year olds. My point was that sometimes people can do terrible things and yet those things can be legal. Again, I do consider it immoral for an old man to impregnate a 16 year old girl. Heck, I think it's wrong even if the girl is 18. So no, I'm not buying the rationalizations. I am only speaking to legality not to morality. If only the laws were always moral. I'm still disguisted in a country that allows 16 year olds to be married to 50 year olds in our day and age.

The cult members are clearly dishonest about their practices.

I'm womdering some more about it especially in light of Warren Jeffs situation with pressuring an underage girl into marrying her cousin. I even started a thread about lying (for Jews, Jesus, etc.) in part because of this.

The CPS workers SEE girls pregnant and with babies, and these girls are not sharing any information concerning the fathers. (if they slept with their thirteen year old buddy why not just say so and be done with it). CPS workers can't get factual information from the adults, or the children. They see physical evidence of physical abuse. They see good evidence for sexual abuse.

Evidence of physical abuse is sufficient to establish danger.

Sexual abuse might be more difficult, but I imagine that DNA testing could prove it. Why not give information? Well, for one they probably distrust the outside world. They probably don't want authorities to know exactly how many wives each man has either. Yes, I also suspect that many of them are illegally (and immorally) pregnant with the children of older men but how to legally determine this while protecting the right not to have one's privacy invaded is tricky.

[_asbestosman]

Heres the thing guys and gals. They didn't raid the compound because (gasp!) men had more than one wife. They raided it because adult males were having sex with children.

Which is unfortunately and disguistingly legal in some circumstances (the girl is 16 and married to the old dude).

They raided the compound on allegations of abuse. Apparently some good evidence of abuse has been uncovered. Let's hope justice is served.

THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH POLYGAMY.

I'm pretty sure I realize this. I'm pretty sure I've been focusing on issues such as law, freedom, statutory rape, and lies.

[_truth dancer]

Yes, I also suspect that many of them are illegally (and immorally) pregnant with the children of older men but how to legally determine this while protecting the right not to have one's privacy invaded is tricky.

I just don't see it as so tricky.

CPS workers see sufficient and clear evidence that children are abused, they bring that evidence to a judge who temporarily removes the children until decent, law abiding experts can determine if there is hope for the children to be with their parents while remaining safe.

I see the state protecting the rights of children to be safe. This Trump's the rights of parents to abuse children even if they believe God told them to.

The ultimate goal of CPS is to have children living safely with their families. Permanently removing children from their parents is the very last option and the one only used under extremely and overwhelmingly clear proof of abuse. It is a last resort.

~dancer~

[_asbestosman]

This Trump's the rights of parents to abuse children even if they believe God told them to.

Just so we're clear, there is no such right. There is, however, a right to privacy. The government cannot simply barge in to my home to make sure I'm not abusing anyone. If what you say is correct, the government didn't simply barge in--they had legitimate evidence to conduct a search and legitimate evidence to confirm it. If that's so, then I hope the children will be moved to a safe environment. If the children were safe in the first place (which I'm beginning to doubt again on account of Warren Jeffs), then hopefully they will be restored to their mothers.

The ultimate goal of CPS is to have children living safely with their families. Permanently removing children from their parents is the very last option and the one only used under extremely and overwhelmingly clear proof of abuse. It is a last resort.

That's great, but even temporarily removing children from their parents for an investigation can be difficult. If there is sufficient evidence to warrant it then that's what needs to happen. I'm not able to rule it either way.

[_truth dancer]

That's great, but even temporarily removing children from their parents for an investigation can be difficult. If there is sufficient evidence to warrant it then that's what needs to happen. I'm not able to rule it either way.

That is because you don't know how CPS works.

No children are taken from their homes unless there is overwhelming evidence that their safety is at risk and/or they are in danger.

This is how CPS and the laws of our Country work.

Children are taken, every day from abusive homes. It is never easy, always heart wrenching, and ALWAYS done with the greatest care and concern for the children.

Again, in this Country law enforcement can't just go in and remove children. You can be assured that there is ample evidence of abuse.

Have you listened to these moms? (Catch Larry King Live). Is appears quite clear to me (and virtually everyone who listens to them), they very well know that it is against the law to allow/encourage/support/celebrate their young girls having sex with grown men. Just hearing their evasive, dishonest, script gives us a glimpse of how difficult it must have been for therapists and social workers to get information.

I just completely don't get the idea that somehow the parents rights were violated.

~dancer~

[_asbestosman]

Just hearing their evasive, dishonest, script gives us a glimpse of how difficult it must have been for therapists and social workers to get information.

Well, it's not particularly easy to discern when someone is being dishonest (unless maybe it's a child where it's obvious). I need other evidence of dishonesty rather than mere evasiveness. There are questions for which I will provide evasive answers. That does not mean I'm guilty of what you may suspect.

I just completely don't get the idea that somehow the parents rights were violated.

You seem to have more faith in the government than I do.

[_truth dancer]

Just hearing their evasive, dishonest, script gives us a glimpse of how difficult it must have been for therapists and social workers to get information.

Well, it's not particularly easy to discern when someone is being dishonest (unless maybe it's a child where it's obvious). I need other evidence of dishonesty rather than mere evasiveness. There are questions for which I will provide evasive answers. That does not mean I'm guilty of what you may suspect.

When asked, children and adults are giving different names, different ages, not telling who their parents are, or giving multiple names at different times to different people, etc. etc. Not too difficult to realize they are being less than honest.

Listen to any interview of these women, they refuse to tell how old the girls are, they refuse to discuss how old they were when they were "married", they refuse to discuss the reasons why the children were removed. They very well know what is going on.

One doesn't have to be a trained social worker (which these interviewers are), to KNOW there is something amiss.

I just completely don't get the idea that somehow the parents rights were violated.

You seem to have more faith in the government than I do.

I've worked with CPS enough to know that these are seriously caring adults who are absolutely doing the best the can to protect children. These are adults who give their lives to help families. They WANT to help families stay together if there is anyway possible. Yes, I have faith in them. Absolutely.

In addition, I have faith in the laws that are in place to protect children. It is virtually impossible to remove children from a home unless there is evidence of abuse or children are in danger.

~dancer~

[_Trinity]

Just hearing their evasive, dishonest, script gives us a glimpse of how difficult it must have been for therapists and social workers to get information.

Well, it's not particularly easy to discern when someone is being dishonest (unless maybe it's a child where it's obvious). I need other evidence of dishonesty rather than mere evasiveness. There are questions for which I will provide evasive answers. That does not mean I'm guilty of what you may suspect.

When asked, children and adults are giving different names, different ages, not telling who their parents are, or giving multiple names at different times to different people, etc. etc. Not too difficult to realize they are being less than honest.

Listen to any interview of these women, they refuse to tell how old the girls are, they refuse to discuss how old they were when they were "married", they refuse to discuss the reasons why the children were removed. They very well know what is going on.

One doesn't have to be a trained social worker (which these interviewers are), to KNOW there is something amiss.

I just completely don't get the idea that somehow the parents rights were violated.

You seem to have more faith in the government than I do.

I've worked with CPS enough to know that these are seriously caring adults who are absolutely doing the best the can to protect children. These are adults who give their lives to help families. They WANT to help families stay together if there is anyway possible. Yes, I have faith in them. Absolutely.

In addition, I have faith in the laws that are in place to protect children. It is virtually impossible to remove children from a home unless there is evidence of abuse or children are in danger.

~dancer~

Dancer,

Would you happen to know what CPS procedure is if they were to go into a traditional home and find belt marks on one child. Would they also then remove any other children at the same time as well?

[_John Larsen]

Dancer,

Would you happen to know what CPS procedure is if they were to go into a traditional home and find belt marks on one child. Would they also then remove any other children at the same time as well?

I have some experience with the foster system and with CPS, and the answer is not necessarily.