Historical Mormonism is a mystery cult?

[_The Nehor]

Yes, it does, But frankly I do not believe you.

Just trying to help but yeah, it's true. I'm just waiting though. Any day now I should get TONS of contracts from the Church. Any second now....

You totally do not get what I mean by Mormon elite.

You're right. I don't believe a Mormon elite exists.

[_John Larsen]

Yes, it does, But frankly I do not believe you.

Just trying to help but yeah, it's true. I'm just waiting though. Any day now I should get TONS of contracts from the Church. Any second now....

You totally do not get what I mean by Mormon elite.

You're right. I don't believe a Mormon elite exists.

Really? You don't think there are certain Mormon families that are more likely to hold high Mormon office and/or control prominent business in Utah?

[_Mercury]

Yes, it does, But frankly I do not believe you.

Just trying to help but yeah, it's true. I'm just waiting though. Any day now I should get TONS of contracts from the Church. Any second now....

You totally do not get what I mean by Mormon elite.

You're right. I don't believe a Mormon elite exists.

Well, like most things you believe or do not believe, reality says otherwise.

[_The Nehor]

Well, like most things you believe or do not believe, reality says otherwise.

Well, if it does exist, I would most likely be a part of it. If there is an LDS aristocracy, I should be a part of it. I'm not. Nor are the people I know who have even more right to be a part of it then me (children and grandchildren of Prophets and Apostles).

[_Trevor]

I'm pretty closely related to an Apostle and several Seventies. I'm related to a member of the local Temple Presidency, my father and grandfathers have held prominent Church positions throughout their lives. I think one day I will do similar things if prophecy can be trusted.

Why would I want to share my experiences with those who despise and/or seek to discredit what I've dedicated my life to? I've already made that mistake.

A couple of thoughts.

First, I take it back, you probably do qualify for the Mormon elite based on your close relations with the active Mormon elite (rulers). Second, it is hilarious that you deny the existence of an elite, and are also obtuse enough not to divine why it is you would have such a florid patriarchal blessing. You honestly don't see a likely connection?

Lastly, if I were you, and I actually wanted to live out the nightmare of seeing these "blessings" fulfilled, I would quit this board forthwith. You would be better off ripping off the sick and dying like Quentin Cook did than sticking your nose out here. It would be much more conducive to your future success among the Brethren.

[_The Nehor]

A couple of thoughts.

First, I take it back, you probably do qualify for the Mormon elite based on your close relations with the active Mormon elite (rulers). Second, it is hilarious that you deny the existence of an elite, and are also obtuse enough not to divine why it is you would have such a florid patriarchal blessing. You honestly don't see a likely connection?

Lastly, if I were you, and I actually wanted to live out the nightmare of seeing these "blessings" fulfilled, I would quit this board forthwith. You would be better off ripping off the sick and dying like Quentin Cook did than sticking your nose out here. It would be much more conducive to your future success among the Brethren.

To be blunt, no, I don't see such a connection. From friends and such who have shared some of their blessing with me some are even more florid (without the 'pedigree').

You appear to be under the impression that I want high callings in the Church. I do not. I've spent enough time around Stake Presidents, Bishops, Temple Presidents, etc. that I have no desire for those callings at all. I expect the Lord will put me where I need to be in any case. Still, who would want unpaid jobs helping to build the Church? They're time-consuming, heart-wrenching, and difficult. The 'elite' are not after money. They want to serve God. Only a few who have no time to support themselves get any money at all and they're not living the good life. If I wanted power and prestige, the corporate route would be so much easier. Either that or founding my own religion that has much laxer rules and controls on the disposition of funds.

[_Trevor]

To be blunt, no, I don't see such a connection. From friends and such who have shared some of their blessing with me some are even more florid (without the 'pedigree').

Well, they do tend to be that way, admittedly. But in your case the patriarch, if he did his homework, would have had reason to think it was more likely in your case.

You appear to be under the impression that I want high callings in the Church. I do not. I've spent enough time around Stake Presidents, Bishops, Temple Presidents, etc. that I have no desire for those callings at all. I expect the Lord will put me where I need to be in any case. Still, who would want unpaid jobs helping to build the Church? They're time-consuming, heart-wrenching, and difficult. The 'elite' are not after money. They want to serve God. Only a few who have no time to support themselves get any money at all and they're not living the good life. If I wanted power and prestige, the corporate route would be so much easier. Either that or founding my own religion that has much laxer rules and controls on the disposition of funds.

Well, appearances can be deceiving, especially when you aren't looking carefully. I never said you did want them. I set it in a conditional, which is quite different.

You also seem to me to be naïve about the attractions of power. Corporate power and prestige is cheap next to the prize that service as an apostle would be to a devoted believer. They will of course approach the call with exactly the same coy attitude you present of humility in the face of such a burdensome task, and in the end they will all take up what they sincerely believe to be the divine assignment. You are clearly well versed in the whole song and dance already.

But make no mistake, it is just as much about power and prestige as anything other prominent position. You may value it in different terms for theological reasons, but it bears the same intoxicating allure as the other, more worldly versions, and some would say in a more refined and heady concentration.

[_Coggins7]

Read some Chomsky and repost in a month.

This, finally, and unambiguously, says it all.

No wonder, no wonder at all, that this man cannot stand the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

[_Coggins7]

Well, appearances can be deceiving, especially when you aren't looking carefully. I never said you did want them. I set it in a conditional, which is quite different.

You also seem to me to be naïve about the attractions of power. Corporate power and prestige is cheap next to the prize that service as an apostle would be to a devoted believer. They will of course approach the call with exactly the same coy attitude you present of humility in the face of such a burdensome task, and in the end they will all take up what they sincerely believe to be the divine assignment. You are clearly well versed in the whole song and dance already.

But make no mistake, it is just as much about power and prestige as anything other prominent position. You may value it in different terms for theological reasons, but it bears the same intoxicating allure as the other, more worldly versions, and some would say in a more refined and heady concentration.

Need you, Trevor, chase phantoms and raise bogymen out of your own leftist/secularist imagination in this manner?

My assertion here is going to be disarmingly straightforward: you have not the slightest idea whatever what motivates and impels those called to positions of high authority in the Church, nor how, across LDS culture as a whole, such callings are perceived by those who are called to them.

In LDS doctrine and culture, high callings are not sought for (at the very least it is expected that this attitude should and will not exist in those who are given high leadership positions) and if one does seek them, that may be understood as a clear sign that one does not understand the Gospel and the nature of Priesthood governance, and is probably not an appropriate choice for the very calling he seeks.

Indeed, even in the secular world, where real power over others is directly wielded, those most desirous of power are precisely those who should not have it.

You know, I'm getting tired of pointing out to you in post after post that you have "not the slightest idea whatever" etc., on subject after subject pertaining to the Church. Perhaps you could educate yourself somewhat on LDS doctrine, and acquaint yourself with LDS culture, and our perceptions of our own religion a little better so I wouldn't have to do this at any further length.

[Guest]

To be blunt, no, I don't see such a connection. From friends and such who have shared some of their blessing with me some are even more florid (without the 'pedigree').

Well, they do tend to be that way, admittedly. But in your case the patriarch, if he did his homework, would have had reason to think it was more likely in your case.

You appear to be under the impression that I want high callings in the Church. I do not. I've spent enough time around Stake Presidents, Bishops, Temple Presidents, etc. that I have no desire for those callings at all. I expect the Lord will put me where I need to be in any case. Still, who would want unpaid jobs helping to build the Church? They're time-consuming, heart-wrenching, and difficult. The 'elite' are not after money. They want to serve God. Only a few who have no time to support themselves get any money at all and they're not living the good life. If I wanted power and prestige, the corporate route would be so much easier. Either that or founding my own religion that has much laxer rules and controls on the disposition of funds.

Well, appearances can be deceiving, especially when you aren't looking carefully. I never said you did want them. I set it in a conditional, which is quite different.

You also seem to me to be naïve about the attractions of power. Corporate power and prestige is cheap next to the prize that service as an apostle would be to a devoted believer. They will of course approach the call with exactly the same coy attitude you present of humility in the face of such a burdensome task, and in the end they will all take up what they sincerely believe to be the divine assignment. You are clearly well versed in the whole song and dance already.

But make no mistake, it is just as much about power and prestige as anything other prominent position. You may value it in different terms for theological reasons, but it bears the same intoxicating allure as the other, more worldly versions, and some would say in a more refined and heady concentration.

Unless of course the Patriarch actually communicates with God about the whole thing....but that's just ridiculous.

So now the attraction should be about people seeing you as a demigod of piety. Who would want to live up to that standard?

I never said I disliked power. I like power. I have some. I'd like to get more. The better part of me wants it to use it to help others, to purify myself, and to seek out the mysteries of God to become like him. The worst part wants recognition, respect, and an easy trip through life combined with the ego boost that comes from manipulating people to my will. The former will get me exalted, the latter will get me damned. The latter must die.

I dislike your song and dance statement. I think there is a general feeling that any time an Apostle or Prophet confesses their imperfections it is a kind of false humility. Better people then I have told me that that is a lie. The more virtuous you are the more you recognize your remaining deficiencies. Good people know the power of evil because they've fought it and resisted it. They know what kind of person they are. Those with a more relaxed attitude to morality lead sheltered lives. They don't know much about goodness as they haven't made goodness a quest and they know nothing about evil because they don't fight it to the last and don't know how strong it is. I think when Peter, Paul, Hinckley, and Joseph confessed that they had sins and had wickedness within them they were not saying it in a kind of parrot humility. They are reporting the truth and they know it.

Don't get me wrong, spiritual pride is one of the worst sins in existence. It's what makes devils. In my experience though, they don't last long in the LDS Church. Without the Spirit of God their proud professions of belief and self-satisfaction due to their imagined piety tend to lead them down different roads. There is a part of me very much in danger of going that way.