OBEs--a reductio ad absurdum

[_beastie]

When I first left the church and was still a wavering theist, maybe deist, I read everything I could find about NDEs. I'd heard the stories, too, about OBEs and NDEs wherein unbelievable, accurate details were shared. What I discovered was that virtually none of these stories could be verified. Every one of them was anecdotal.

All these years, all this fascination with these experiences, and we can't come up with a ONE that has been thoroughly verified and documented???

'nuff said.

[_Scottie]

Thanks guys.

I guess that if I were to believe OBE/NDE stories, I should believe UFO abductions and Bigfoot sightings as well. There are some upstanding people who will swear up and down that they saw it!

I don't get why we should be so arrogant as to believe that just because we evolved human consciousness that we are somehow more deserving of an afterlife.

[_Some Schmo]

Tarski (and other skeptics),

How do you respond to those that claim to have had an OBE, travelled to a loved ones presence and later described exactly what that person was wearing, doing, saying, etc?

Do you believe these are just non-credible stories?

Without a single doubt.

When one thinks about the incredible power of not only the human imagination but also the power of suggestion, it's all too easy to understand how these urban myths take on a life of their own. I'm often amazed at how powerful some writer's stories are. How could those just be from a guy's imagination? Who knows... but we know they are.

And the real power is in the re-telling.

One of my favorite episodes of M*A*S*H is one of the early ones where Hawkeye and Trapper are giving away supplies to the local orphanage. The nun receiving the stuff asks who's responsible, and Hawkeye doesn't want to give his own name, so he comes up with the name Capt. Tuttle (the name of his imaginary childhood friend). The whole episode centers on this mythical guy who essentially turns into a well regarded saint among the people of the camp. Characters start claiming they had lunch with him, begin quoting things he'd said, etc. He became "real." He is even up for a medal at the end, and a general came to camp and would have been awarded it to him if Hawkeye hadn't kill him off first.

Although it's just a fictitious story, there's an incredible truth about human nature contained in that episode. With the right motivation, people will believe anything, to the point where their brain will construct what it needs to in order to help the myth along. This natural explanation is far easier to believe than non-material spirits are; that much is certain.

[_The Dude]

I guess that if I were to believe OBE/NDE stories, I should believe UFO abductions and Bigfoot sightings as well.

Yes, you should be consistent like Kary Mullis (he believes in UFO abductions).

PCR is a real time-saver, though!

[_Scottie]

Tarski (and other skeptics),

How do you respond to those that claim to have had an OBE, travelled to a loved ones presence and later described exactly what that person was wearing, doing, saying, etc?

Do you believe these are just non-credible stories?

Without a single doubt.

When one thinks about the incredible power of not only the human imagination but also the power of suggestion, it's all too easy to understand how these urban myths take on a life of their own. I'm often amazed at how powerful some writer's stories are. How could those just be from a guy's imagination? Who knows... but we know they are.

And the real power is in the re-telling.

One of my favorite episodes of M*A*S*H is one of the early ones where Hawkeye and Trapper are giving away supplies to the local orphanage. The nun receiving the stuff asks who's responsible, and Hawkeye doesn't want to give his own name, so he comes up with the name Capt. Tuttle (the name of his imaginary childhood friend). The whole episode centers on this mythical guy who essentially turns into a well regarded saint among the people of the camp. Characters start claiming they had lunch with him, begin quoting things he'd said, etc. He became "real." He is even up for a medal at the end, and a general came to camp and would have been awarded it to him if Hawkeye hadn't kill him off first.

Although it's just a fictitious story, there's an incredible truth about human nature contained in that episode. With the right motivation, people will believe anything, to the point where their brain will construct what it needs to in order to help the myth along. This natural explanation is far easier to believe than non-material spirits are; that much is certain.

This is a great point.

I can remember when I was around 7 or 8 years old, I started telling kids that I was hiding behind a chair and actually SAW Santa Claus. I told the story so much that I actually convinced myself that I had seen him.

Not to sidetrack, but this is one of my biggest problems with Moroni's promise and the whole "fake it till you make it" attitude. If I could convince myself that I saw Santa, how much easier must it be to convince yourself that you received some nebulous burning in the bosom, or clarity of thought or any of the other buzzwords that constitute an answer?

[_Tarski]

I guess that if I were to believe OBE/NDE stories, I should believe UFO abductions and Bigfoot sightings as well.

Yes, you should be consistent like Kary Mullis (he believes in UFO abductions).

PCR is a real time-saver, though!

Isn't he the one that likes acid so much?

[_Scottie]

I guess that if I were to believe OBE/NDE stories, I should believe UFO abductions and Bigfoot sightings as well.

Yes, you should be consistent like Kary Mullis (he believes in UFO abductions).

PCR is a real time-saver, though!

WTF is PCR??

[_Some Schmo]

I don't get why we should be so arrogant as to believe that just because we evolved human consciousness that we are somehow more deserving of an afterlife.

And the arrogance doesn't end there.

I think it's stunningly arrogant to think that this universe (let alone this galaxy, solar system, or even planet) was created with us in mind, considering the amount of space we take up in it. At the very least, the "creator" is the single most wasteful (designer) conceivable. And the arrogance manifests itself in the way we treat this precious piece of rock we call Earth. I mean, what difference does it make? Jesus will be here soon... why tend to the planet when it's just going to be burned?

It's unbelievable, really.

[_Scottie]

She then told me that not only was it first hand information but that the spirit testified to everyone in the meeting that it was true. The spirit was there with a power and certainty she had never witnessed and everyone felt it.

So, I gotta ask...

What was her response to the spirit lying to everyone in the chapel?

[_Scottie]

I mean, what difference does it make? Jesus will be here soon... why tend to the planet when it's just going to be burned?

LOL

My ex actually said that the other day. Something along the lines of, "I don't know why they are bothering with alternative fuel sources. The oil will last us the next few years until the 2nd coming."