FLDS - 31 of 53 girls pregnant and/or with children

[_ludwigm]

Hey Jersey Girl...

In terms of the older men... my guess: I'm thinking they left town and are probably going into hiding.
...
The whole thing sickens me.
~dancer~

They was taught to do this, by John Taylor.

[_Trevor]

A brief study of the two mens lives is all it takes to show the vast differences. If in no other way, than to just look at the application of the doctrine.

Joseph elevated everyone around him, he doled out responsibilities and activly sought to educate and strengthen everyone in the community around him.

Warren Jeffs did the opposite.

So, you remain incapable of acknowledging all it is that they do have in common, instead focusing on your subjective estimation of the difference between them. Typical.

[_The Nehor]

Its really reaching to compare Joseph Smith with Warren Jeffs. Really really reaching.

The only thing they have in common is a love of the Book of Mormon. Did Joseph Smith keep the members of the Church uneducated? Did he keep them locked into their community? Did he brainwash people?

Its Apples and Oranges.

I back Gaz on this. Joseph and Warren had almost diametrically opposed methods of leadership. Sure, there are comparisons that can be made. You can even argue that Joseph influenced Warren. However, I think this is akin to saying Marx influenced Lenin and Stalin.

There have been a few threads lately about the similarities between Joseph and Warren. I posted one about their differences (and there are a LOT) and it died a quick death. No refutation, nothing. I do not accept that there is much similarity between them at all.

Can any of your really see Warren Jeffs following the Joseph's advice, "I teach them correct principles and they govern themselves."?

Edit: I should add that I in no way want to defend the FLDS compound though it seems like many of the critics here assume I side with them by default.

[_Scottie]

Which girls did Joseph Smith rape? Do we have evidence? I don't have to excuse that for which there is not evidence.

Except that it happened in the Bible, so there is precedence, and if God commanded it, you wouldn't have any problem with it what-so-ever. In fact, you would defend the great man to your death!

[_Trevor]

I back Gaz on this. Joseph and Warren had almost diametrically opposed methods of leadership. Sure, there are comparisons that can be made. You can even argue that Joseph influenced Warren. However, I think this is akin to saying Marx influenced Lenin and Stalin.

There have been a few threads lately about the similarities between Joseph and Warren. I posted one about their differences (and there are a LOT) and it died a quick death. No refutation, nothing. I do not accept that there is much similarity between them at all.

Can any of your really see Warren Jeffs following the Joseph's advice, "I teach them correct principles and they govern themselves."?

How much do you really know about Warren Jeffs? How much of the apparent dissimilarity is born of your tendency to disbelieve things others would justifiably suspect Joseph to have done? How do the actual dissimilarities make the many other similarities irrelevant?

Edit: I should add that I in no way want to defend the FLDS compound though it seems like many of the critics here assume I side with them by default.

Why would anyone assume that? I would think you should be expected to do exactly what it is you consistently do--distance your beloved Joseph Smith and contemporary Mormonism from Warren Jeffs as much as possible. What is odd about it is that Jeffs in some very simple ways is much closer to Smith than contemporary Mormons ever will be (I should hope), and yet they (these contemporary Mormons) cling to the fantasy that their illusion of Joseph is more authentic somehow.

[_Scottie]

Leaving the compound is worse than murder??? Wow. Those poor kids.

And, for you LDS who are condemning those teachings, can you PLEASE look at your own teachings that might be just as harmful, if not a bit more subtle?

I have to agree with Gaz. The two men are nothing alike. Although Joseph Smith introduced the practice, Jeffs took it to a whole new sick level.

Jeffs came to power by brute force. Joseph Smith charmed his way to power.

Question: did the early SLC/BY era Mormons throw boys out?

[_The Nehor]

I back Gaz on this. Joseph and Warren had almost diametrically opposed methods of leadership. Sure, there are comparisons that can be made. You can even argue that Joseph influenced Warren. However, I think this is akin to saying Marx influenced Lenin and Stalin.

There have been a few threads lately about the similarities between Joseph and Warren. I posted one about their differences (and there are a LOT) and it died a quick death. No refutation, nothing. I do not accept that there is much similarity between them at all.

Can any of your really see Warren Jeffs following the Joseph's advice, "I teach them correct principles and they govern themselves."?

How much do you really know about Warren Jeffs? How much of the apparent dissimilarity is born of your tendency to disbelieve things others would justifiably suspect Joseph to have done? How do the actual dissimilarities make the many other similarities irrelevant?

Edit: I should add that I in no way want to defend the FLDS compound though it seems like many of the critics here assume I side with them by default.

Why would anyone assume that? I would think you should be expected to do exactly what it is you consistently do--distance your beloved Joseph Smith and contemporary Mormonism from Warren Jeffs as much as possible. What is odd about it is that Jeffs in some very simple ways is much closer to Smith than contemporary Mormons ever will be (I should hope), and yet they (these contemporary Mormons) cling to the fantasy that their illusion of Joseph is more authentic somehow.

Differences again:

Joseph Smith: Pursued a secular education with vigor in many fields including language, history, and politics. Also set up classes to teach himself and members of his Church. Also worked to make higher learning available in communities he established. His successor continued to send men and women back east to be educated.

Warren Jeffs: Withheld even basic education from his followers.

Joseph Smith: Repeatedly taught the value of Christ's atonement and never claimed Christ's power for himself.

Warren Jeffs: Dropped numerous hints that he was Jesus Christ.

Joseph Smith: Revealed a complex theology.

Warren Jeffs: Had a revelation that the marriageable age should be lowered to 16 (and later 14) for girls.

Joseph Smith: Sought meetings with government and civic leaders to work out plans for his people and work within the law.

Warren Jeffs: Isolated his people from interaction.

Joseph Smith: Went to prison and never recanted what he had experienced and who he was.

Warren Jeffs: Went to prison and denied everything (though he later denied his denial).

Joseph Smith: Took advantage of most modern creations of the day and he and his followers came up with new ones.

Warren Jeffs: Had his people maintain an anachronistic lifestyle.

Joseph Smith: Produced volumes of scripture making Christ the center of the LDS faith and never demanding personal worship.

Warren Jeffs: Invented new hymns and verses of songs praising him and identifying himself with Christ.

Joseph Smith: Personally proselyted and sent hundreds more out to do the same thing, sought to bring the Gospel to all.

Warren Jeffs: Does not actively seek out converts and it is rare that even those seeking to join his Church are allowed in.

Jeffs is closer to Joseph Smith then I am in that he had multiple wives. Now, can we move past that and look instead at what kind of society they tried to create, their style of leadership, their actual teachings, etc. ? I realize we have an obsession with sex but it seems that is all people care to comment on about Joseph. Why?

[_asbestosman]

and if God commanded it, you wouldn't have any problem with it what-so-ever. In fact, you would defend the great man to your death!

Really? I wasn't aware of that? In fact, I'm pretty sure I'd do nasty (legal) things to any "prophet" dumb enough to ask me to go in with him on such nonsense. If God really was that way, I figure Satan's deal can't be any worse.

[_Trevor]

Differences again:

Joseph Smith: Pursued a secular education with vigor in many fields including language, history, and politics. [Only belongs if you bring Jeffs' education in too] Also set up classes to teach himself and members of his Church [For how many?]. Also worked to make higher learning available in communities he established [Again]. His successor continued to send men and women back east to be educated.[Not relevant]

Warren Jeffs: Withheld even basic education from his followers. [All of his followers? No educated elite even?]

Joseph Smith: Repeatedly taught the value of Christ's atonement and never claimed Christ's power for himself.[Compared his achievements with those of Jesus, as did his followers. Set himself up as the fulfillment of end-times prophecies in the Book of Mormon and other of his revelations. Mouthed words he claimed to be Jesus' direct speech. Saw his sons as potential Davidic kings. Crowned himself into a position analogous with that of Jesus. May have taught that he was a descendant of Christ]

Warren Jeffs: Dropped numerous hints that he was Jesus Christ.

Joseph Smith: Revealed a complex theology. [It was revealed to him that he should take multiple wives, some of them children, and others already married to other men. Even pursued the wives of his own followers]

Warren Jeffs: Had a revelation that the marriageable age should be lowered to 16 (and later 14) for girls.

Joseph Smith: Sought meetings with government and civic leaders to work out plans for his people and work within the law. [In a completely different historical context than Jeffs', the one in which he believed he could set up a theocratic kingdom on the frontier and his successor believed he could set up a theocratic kingdom in the west]

Warren Jeffs: Isolated his people from interaction.

Joseph Smith: Went to prison and never recanted what he had experienced and who he was.[Also consistently and falsely denied that he practiced polygamy. Destroyed a printing press in order to hide the truth of his bizarre life and practices]

Warren Jeffs: Went to prison and denied everything (though he later denied his denial).

Joseph Smith: Took advantage of most modern creations of the day and he and his followers came up with new ones. [Including seer stones and divining rods (?), which some would say were already anachronistic in his day]

Warren Jeffs: Had his people maintain an anachronistic lifestyle.

Joseph Smith: Produced volumes of scripture making Christ the center of the LDS faith and never demanding personal worship. [produced bogus scripture that made him the key to the last dispensation of time before the return of Christ, created a ritual and theological system in which he stands as the judge over every person who lived during his lifetime, used high-sounding secret names to hide his identity while revealing his arrogance, intimated at times a secret, higher identity]

Warren Jeffs: Invented new hymns and verses of songs praising him and identifying himself with Christ.

Joseph Smith: Personally proselyted and sent hundreds more out to do the same thing, sought to bring the Gospel to all.[granted]

Warren Jeffs: Does not actively seek out converts and it is rare that even those seeking to join his Church are allowed in.

Jeffs is closer to Joseph Smith then I am in that he had multiple wives. Now, can we move past that and look instead at what kind of society they tried to create, their style of leadership, their actual teachings, etc. ? I realize we have an obsession with sex but it seems that is all people care to comment on about Joseph. Why?

I see many of what you identify as substantive differences as being apparent. You ignore a lot of important information about Smith, referring mostly to the tame, contemporary LDS view of him as stacked against the unvarnished Jeffs. When you compare your panegyric with the obviously criminalized Jeffs, of course they look completely different, but both are distortions to a certain degree. Other differences that you identify have much to do with the exigencies of time and place and not some inherent differences between the two men. Historical context does much to shape people and perceptions.

I think you would like to be able to boil down the problem to others' obsession with sex. I think it is telling that this is the first thing you reach for.

[_The Nehor]

I see many of what you identify as substantive differences as being apparent. You ignore a lot of important information about Smith, referring mostly to the tame, contemporary LDS view of him as stacked against the unvarnished Jeffs. When you compare your panegyric with the obviously criminalized Jeffs, of course they look completely different, but both are distortions to a certain degree. Other differences that you identify have much to do with the exigencies of time and place and not some inherent differences between the two men. Historical context does much to shape people and perceptions.

I think you would like to be able to boil down the problem to others' obsession with sex. I think it is telling that this is the first thing you reach for.

I find it telling that the first thing you reach for is how telling it is that I mentioned critic's fixation on sex as the key to understanding Jeffs and Smith. Why not bring up something else?