Trevor wrote:I seem to recall that there is a crucial page missing from the journal of someone who met with Brigham Young before the massacre. Does anyone remember more of the details?
Juanita Brooks wrote this and was referring to Jacob Hamblin's diary (he was the southern Utah Indian MP at the time, and brought southern Utah Indian leaders to meet with BY in SLC on Sept. 1). Dimick Huntington's diary discusses this same meeting (I.e., the entry about BY giving the Indians the cattle on the south route).
Based upon my impressions of Levi Peterson's bio of Juanita I'm not convinced that her claims about things being ripped out of journals has much validity.
I have read a direct photocopy of Hamblin's diary. There does not appear to be anything physically missing -- all the pages flow -- at least in the critical days I was reading. [He does not mention, I might add, an encounter he later said he had with John D. Lee where Lee confessed to him.]
I find it interesting how church leadership is *never* responsible for the actions of its members. In the corporate world, big mistakes, whether they were directly caused by leadership or not, often lead to reseignation of CEO's and VPs. The justification will be that such senior leadership should have anticipated the problem. It's a high level of responsibility. But oh no, not in the church! It's neeeever the church's fault, it's perfect and the leaders would be struck down immediatly by God if they weren't at least near perfect. They are only prophets, seers, and revelators, can't expect them to predict and take responsibility!
Gadianton wrote:I find it interesting how church leadership is *never* responsible for the actions of its members. In the corporate world, big mistakes, whether they were directly caused by leadership or not, often lead to reseignation of CEO's and VPs. The justification will be that such senior leadership should have anticipated the problem. It's a high level of responsibility. But oh no, not in the church! It's neeeever the church's fault, it's perfect and the leaders would be struck down immediatly by God if they weren't at least near perfect. They are only prophets, seers, and revelators, can't expect them to predict and take responsibility!
Thanks for the editorial.
Next time, though, I suggest actually confronting the data in the topic at hand.
One moment in annihilation's waste, one moment, of the well of life to taste- The stars are setting and the caravan starts for the dawn of nothing; Oh, make haste! -Omar Khayaam
Gadianton wrote:I find it interesting how church leadership is *never* responsible for the actions of its members. In the corporate world, big mistakes, whether they were directly caused by leadership or not, often lead to reseignation of CEO's and VPs. The justification will be that such senior leadership should have anticipated the problem. It's a high level of responsibility. But oh no, not in the church! It's neeeever the church's fault, it's perfect and the leaders would be struck down immediatly by God if they weren't at least near perfect. They are only prophets, seers, and revelators, can't expect them to predict and take responsibility!
Thanks for the editorial.
Next time, though, I suggest actually confronting the data in the topic at hand.
One moment in annihilation's waste, one moment, of the well of life to taste- The stars are setting and the caravan starts for the dawn of nothing; Oh, make haste! -Omar Khayaam
One moment in annihilation's waste, one moment, of the well of life to taste- The stars are setting and the caravan starts for the dawn of nothing; Oh, make haste! -Omar Khayaam
rcrocket wrote:I have read a direct photocopy of Hamblin's diary. There does not appear to be anything physically missing -- all the pages flow -- at least in the critical days I was reading. [He does not mention, I might add, an encounter he later said he had with John D. Lee where Lee confessed to him.]
Brooks describes Hamblin's diary as "handwritten, as yet unpublished," and describes the page in question this way: "Here the account stops abruptly, for the next leaf is torn out ...." Mountain Meadows Massacre, pp. 40-41. I wish we had the page to compare to Dimick Huntington's notes of the same meeting. Is the original Jacob Hamblin diary anywhere online?
"Moving beyond apologist persuasion, LDS polemicists furiously (and often fraudulently) attack any non-traditional view of Mormonism. They don't mince words -- they mince the truth."
-- Mike Quinn, writing of the FARMSboys, in "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View," p. x (Rev. ed. 1998)
One moment in annihilation's waste, one moment, of the well of life to taste- The stars are setting and the caravan starts for the dawn of nothing; Oh, make haste! -Omar Khayaam
LifeOnaPlate wrote:I guess we'd want to know what the Indians at the meeting with BY did during the MMM. (According to one source, they were nowhere near the MMM).
Uhh, no.
"Here the account stops abruptly, for the next leaf is torn out.....What Brigham Young told the chiefs in that hour was not recorded, but we might hazard an opinion that it was not out of harmony with his written instructions that 'they must learn that they have got to help us or the United States will kill us both.'.....At that time Brigham Young had to be sure of his allies, for he was conducting a war against tremendous odds. The previous Mormon policy had been to keep the natives from stealing and plundering and to teach them the peaceful pursuits of farming and cattle raising, but now Brigham Young seemed determined that he would no longer "hold them by the wrist," as he told Captain Van Vliet a few days later. The Indians must have started back home immediately, for in seven days they were harassing the emigrants at Mountain Meadows, and in ten days they participated in the massacre of the company." (Brooks, pp. 40-42.)
And crawling on the planet's face Some insects called the human race Lost in time And lost in space...and meaning
I find it very interesting that LoaP fails to provide the "source" w/ pg. numbers. This was a guy, after all, who claimed to understand what plagiarism was, and all of that.
