MA&D's passionate love affair with the FLDS church

[_truth dancer]

Hey Jersey Girl,

I think the lies are to protect the men rapists.

Let me give an example of the problem.

You have the couple who is trying to get custody of their newborn.

OK, now this couple lives with the head honcho (who is the father's father) and has many, many wives and (If I recall correctly) is known to have underage girls as his "wives".

OK, so would it be safe to allow a baby to live in the home of a rapist?

I don't think anyone in their right mind would allow such a thing.

So the couple lies and says they do not know or can't remember who lives in their home.

Personally, the idea that these folks lie like this to protect rapists, even if it means they will not be with their children is enough reason to suggest there is a very abusive environment, certainly unsafe for children.

~dancer~

[_Chap]

Yup. And the FDLDS probably don't think you are a real Mormon either.

Sure. So?

Do you think they are Christians, though?

According to the definition, probably.

Well guess what? The whole of the rest of the world thinks that the LDS and the FLDS are just two different kinds of Mormon, the main members of a particular subset of Christianity. You are Mormons, "according to the definition" because you both base your faith on versions of the revelations claimed by Joseph Smith, and you share the Book of Mormon as your distinctive scripture.

Of course you can anathematize each other as much as you like. But without a belief that there has to be One True Church, there is no objective reason to deny one of you the title because the other wants it all for themselves.

[_Alter Idem]

Hi A.I....

First, you are preaching to the choir... (smile). I think most of us here are pretty clear on what sorts of abuse are going on in the FLDS community.

I wrote,

Same father, which makes them siblings. ;-)

Same founder, same scriptures, (with an exception or two) same beliefs, same history for the first eighty or so years... the FLDS believe the LDS church is the apostate, the LDS church believes it is the FLDS.

Yes these two groups are related.

To which you responded,

Some of these assumptions were correct...

Which of my above "assumptions" are false?

I don't think anyone is suggesting the LDS church TODAY, is the same as the FLDS church. In fact I think I made it clear it is not. However, to state that the FLDS and LDS are "unrelated" is disingenuous.

Again, the FLDS believe it is the LDS who have left the true teachings of Joseph Smith while the LDS claim they are the one and only true church.

I don't know how either could change the others' testimonies or prove they are the true church... both groups have received their witness, have strong witnesses of their prophet, and believe the Book of Mormon and the promise contained therein.

~dancer~

Hi TD, the assumption I took exception to was "same beliefs"--because while the FLDS beliefs were probably the same as mainstream LDS in 1930 (with a couple of exceptions; their belief that they had been set apart to practice polygamy and their rejection of the change in garments and their rejection of the word of wisdom which had been adopted as a commandment by the church) in the last 80 years, their own belief system has changed considerably to the point that the FLDS religion of today is very different from the FLDS religion at it's founding.

I don't subscribe to the idea that LDS and FLDS are completely unrelated--because the FLDS are an off-shoot of Mormonism, but truly, they are extremely different now. That's my point.

[_Alter Idem]

Alter,

I didn't read the replies following these comments of yours so if someone else has replied in a similar way feel free to ignore this.

I don't know about criticizing them for answering "I don't know"...they are being very careful because what they say can be used against them and against their loved ones and family members. Yes, they do practice deception--after all, polygamy is illegal and can bring a lot of trouble on them if others find out they are practicing it, but let's remember that plenty of people would not be forthcoming on a witness stand if they knew the information was damaging.

When I asked about arresting/prosecuting the FLDS on polygamy law in another thread, the posters pointed out to me that they cannot be arrested/prosecuted on that count.

When you said "and can bring a lot of trouble on them if others find out they are practicing it" my ears (eyes) perked up. The community surrounding YFZ ranch, at least, knows and has known that polygamy is being practiced there and that includes the Texas authorities. They knew when the land was purchased (if memory serves me right) that the land owners were tied to a polygamist group.

I'm not sure if what they told you was correct. They can prosecute for polygamy, Utah and Arizona have chosen not to because it is so difficult to prosecute--they decided to prosecute for underage marriage, abuse, fraud, etc. I have read that Texas intends to prosecute them for Bigamy--even though the people are not legally married.

The attorney General here in Utah has always said he will not prosecute for polygamy--I think Arizona has said the same thing. The Short creek raid in 1953 was the last time they prosecuted for polygamy--and it has scarred the FLDS people. They have lived for 50 years believing the govt. could descend on them again anytime. That's why the culture of deception and caution when giving any information about the family relationships.

And of course, on a witness stand, one does not want to give any information which can be used against them or their loved ones.

Actually, when the land in Texas was first purchased, they did not know it was a polygamous group--they found that out later when some residents saw the building going on and got curious. They checked into the names and were able to connect the dots that it was the FLDS who had bought the property.

[_moksha]

Do you agree with the Texas authorities that the abuse needed to stop, or don't you?

IF there was abuse, it needed to stop. I have not seen any evidence of abuse. Only allegations.

Amazing how in one instance of the believing process, one is able to take a leap of faith with little or no evidence and yet in another circumstance is able to eschew years of evidence as being only allegations.

Riddle me this: Why is the FLDS Prophet in jail?

[_truth dancer]

Hi A.I.,

Hi TD, the assumption I took exception to was "same beliefs"--because while the FLDS beliefs were probably the same as mainstream LDS in 1930 (with a couple of exceptions; their belief that they had been set apart to practice polygamy and their rejection of the change in garments and their rejection of the word of wisdom which had been adopted as a commandment by the church) in the last 80 years, their own belief system has changed considerably to the point that the FLDS religion of today is very different from the FLDS religion at it's founding.

I'm asking this in the spirit of learning not challenging K? :-)

I realize there are some differences in the FLDS and the LDS church... obviously polygamy for starters, but of the core doctrine what differences are there?

WoW? Temple rituals (although I'm assuming the FLDS stick to the original and unchanged ceremony restored by Joseph Smith)? What about the Articles of Faith? Do they believe the righteous followers of Joseph Smith will be Gods and Goddesses in the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom where they will procreate for eternity? That they must follow the prophet? Obey leaders? Same baptism? Sacrament? Priesthood blessings? Ordinations of deacons, teachers, priests, elders? Same hymns (probably the original one)?

My understanding is that the FLDS do not engage in missionary work, but I'm thinking it is more of a practice than a core doctrine?

Again, I realize the FLDS hold to many of the original teachings of the LDS church and consequently have diverged from the LDS church over the recent decades still, aside from a few non-doctrinal teachings and some everyday practices, what is really different in terms of core beliefs?

~dancer~

[_Alter Idem]

Do you agree with the Texas authorities that the abuse needed to stop, or don't you?

IF there was abuse, it needed to stop. I have not seen any evidence of abuse. Only allegations.

Amazing how in one instance of the believing process, one is able to take a leap of faith with little or no evidence and yet in another circumstance is able to eschew years of evidence as being only allegations.

Riddle me this: Why is the FLDS Prophet in jail?

Excellent point Moksha, but one that doesn't hold water with most of the posters on the FLDS threads at MADB. I think some believe Jeffs was unfairly convicted--many believe that the allegations against him are false--made up by disgruntled ex-members who want to see him destroyed. They don't choose to really look into the case against Warren Jeffs to realize he's as bad as he's made out to be.

As MBeesley's comment demonstrates, many refuse to believe there is abuse going on because as he says, "I have not seen any evidence of abuse". How do you counter that? This is what I've had to deal with on the FLDS threads...people who insist the abuse is only allegations, there is no proof. But from "allegations" comes investigation and "proof" will only come thorough investigation. If authorities in Texas don't continue their investigation, the FLDS will just retreat further from the scrutiny of the law and there will be no hope for the next generation.

[_Jason Bourne]

So, to all the MA&Dites reading this, I ask you: Which is it? Is the FLDS church an apostate sect of Mormonism, or isn't it? Are they completely unrelated to your own church, or aren't they? Do you disagree with their marital practices, or don't you? Do you agree with the Texas authorities that the abuse needed to stop, or don't you?

I think for many members, at least those who are educated about polygamy and the way the federal government targeted the LDS Church in the 19th century this clearly rings close to home. Thus the defense. If the government does this now who or what is next, at least that is what some think. One wonders if they would have defended the raid agains the Koresh sect with such fervor as well


Interestingly some conservatives and libertarians agree the that raid was wrong and unwarrented.

[_Jason Bourne]

Hi Shades,

Like you, I find many of the comments on MAD disgusting and unfathomable.

It seems the only people who don't think the fLDS children needed help and rescue are fLDS and LDS sympathizers
[/color]

Check out www.michaelsavage.com. This is one flaming conservative who thinks the raid was wrong.

[_mbeesley]

Do you agree with the Texas authorities that the abuse needed to stop, or don't you?

IF there was abuse, it needed to stop. I have not seen any evidence of abuse. Only allegations.

Amazing how in one instance of the believing process, one is able to take a leap of faith with little or no evidence and yet in another circumstance is able to eschew years of evidence as being only allegations.[/quote}
Huh? What are you talking about. What leap of faith have I made with little or no evidence?

Riddle me this: Why is the FLDS Prophet in jail?

For conduct committed in Utah. That is what, a thousand miles away from Texas??? <Rolling eyes>