The Best Reason for Sinning....

[_The Nehor]

The idea that most or even many people leave the Church for intellectual reasons is laughable to me. Could some do so? Sure, I've never met one off the internet though...

Let me be your first.

You're on the internet.

[_The Nehor]

The idea that most or even many people leave the Church for intellectual reasons is laughable to me. Could some do so? Sure, I've never met one off the internet though. On my Mission I spent a lot of time with the less-active. Many still believe it but won't come back. Some got offended 10 years ago at something that was said. Some fell into sins and chose the world over repentance. I've heard lots of people insist that they now know it's not true but when I heard their whole exit story sin always ended up preceding the search for a reason to leave. There are probably people out there who are exceptions to this. I've just never met one.

Well, there are two explanations for this:

- The range of things considered sinful in the Mormon church is so huge, whatever they told you could be related to one Mormon "sin" or another.
- You haven't met many exmormons, or at least, talked to all of them about why they left.

The fact is, whether a person is Mormon or not, they "sin" in the eyes of Mormons all the time. The fact that you put people's sins together with the event of them leaving does not make the two related (or that one lead to the other). If they were related, nobody would be a Mormon any more.

This is largely correct. I probably should have said sinned without any repentance.

[_The Nehor]

Is belief a choice?

Yes. Anyone who has convinced themselves that humans act rationally is profoundly deluded.

[_The Nehor]

How do you explain a Mormon child rapist staying active, and then becoming a temple worker? He's committing serious sins, but maintains his faith. His sinning doesn't result in apostasy.

A strange strength and a strange weakness.

I would argue that a child rapist (or any rapist for that matter) who accepts the LDS belief system and his faith in it will turn themselves into the authorities and begin the long, long repentance process. Either that or they don't really have faith. Or they think Jesus was just making a joke when he made the millstone comment. I think it's safe to say that they do not believe in hell in any case.

[_Mahonri]

Later you will have great memories of all the stuff you 'used to do'.

Remember, if it weren't for sinners we wouldn't have any bad examples to scare the kids with.

[_The Nehor]

Hmmm so, "sin" makes people let go of their beliefs.

Let's see here...I have never had an alcoholic drink; not in my whole life. As a believer I didn't even drink any sort of caffeinated beverages....ever. I don't even drink soda (or anything with corn syrup, however I do drink various herb teas many of which I make from my garden).

So, what would happen if I had a glass of wine? Would a "sin" of this sort make me disbelieve what I currently do?

;-)

Or would it strengthen my disbelief?

Hmmm...

Maybe I should experiment with this... LOL!

~dancer~

Sin makes people question their beliefs and when their actions are not in harmony with their beliefs something has to give (either their beliefs or their actions or their mental wellbeing). If I'm a faithful member of the LDS Church and I start drinking something has to happen. I can fight my desire for alcohol and beat it. I can turn away from my faith and lose the conviction that what I'm doing is wrong in the eyes of God. I can become a passive Mormon, a Jack Mormon, quietly leave, try to find reasons that God does not exist or support the commandment, or just ignore that law and try to push it away. The final (and worst) option is to give up neither and continue doing what I think is wrong while not letting that belief waver at all. This way lies madness (probably literally). These people tend to become manic zealots interspersed with periods of self-loathing. This person would be better off either repenting or leaving.

[_Mahonri]

"And you must sin with real intent -- this means you must truly desire to sin, and be able to do it without guilt."

You are forgetting the ever present Catch 22: The sins of omission.

Not only do you get nailed(and now lose Testimony by percentages... FARMS will do a study to figure out what percentage you lose for what sin) for what you do, but for what you fail to do. Didn't go around the corner earlier because you saw a sexy someone and spent extra time looking..., and missed the opportunity placed before you to help an arthritic old woman across the street? A sin, pure and simple. You committed not just one by looking, but another by omission due to your first.

Just sait. FARMS will shortly have out a list by percentile of how much Testimony you lose for various sins.
1. Two earrings: stop believing 27 versus in the Pearl of Great Price each time you wear them.
2. Body piercings: Stop believing in girls camp as an uplifting experience.
3. Men who let hair touch their collar: Uncontrollable urge to find an R rated movie.

and on and on.

Can't wait to see the list and then hear Boyd K Packer talk on it in General Conference. I might even listen if he announces the topic ahead of time. Will help me keep score.

[_The Nehor]

"And you must sin with real intent -- this means you must truly desire to sin, and be able to do it without guilt."

You are forgetting the ever present Catch 22: The sins of omission.

Not only do you get nailed(and now lose Testimony by percentages... FARMS will do a study to figure out what percentage you lose for what sin) for what you do, but for what you fail to do. Didn't go around the corner earlier because you saw a sexy someone and spent extra time looking..., and missed the opportunity placed before you to help an arthritic old woman across the street? A sin, pure and simple. You committed not just one by looking, but another by omission due to your first.

Just sait. FARMS will shortly have out a list by percentile of how much Testimony you lose for various sins.
1. Two earrings: stop believing 27 versus in the Pearl of Great Price each time you wear them.
2. Body piercings: Stop believing in girls camp as an uplifting experience.
3. Men who let hair touch their collar: Uncontrollable urge to find an R rated movie.

and on and on.

Can't wait to see the list and then hear Boyd K Packer talk on it in General Conference. I might even listen if he announces the topic ahead of time. Will help me keep score.

Ummm, you're thinking of the Jesuits. They're the one who figured sins to several decimal places.

Unrepented sin leads to cognitive dissonance. If your actions aren't in harmony with your beliefs, things change or you go mad. This isn't rocket science or some secret spiritual law. It happens outside of belief in the Church.

[Guest]

Hmmm so, "sin" makes people let go of their beliefs.

~dancer~

Hi TD,

People leave for various reasons, some of which are interrelated. Some for sin, honesty, denial, rebelion, conscience. All sorts of things.

I can honestly say that I'm mistaken for a "dry Mormon" (to Mormons that don't know that I used to belong to their church).

Smith is not my hero anymore. He remained in his church till his dying day living like the people that I was taught that apostates became.

I didn't want to emulate him.

Sorry Mormons, no vices here.

If I do aquire antisocial behavior (or even a drink) in the future, it would be wrong of me. So I probably won't do it.


(edited for clarity)

[_Mad Viking]

Is belief a choice?

Yes. Anyone who has convinced themselves that humans act rationally is profoundly deluded.

I don't think delusion can be equated with choice. I can't imagine someone choosing to be deluded. Or, as you like to put it, I find it laughable that someone would choose to be deluded.