Is Jesus half God, half Man?

[_beastie]

Here are Kevin Barney's thoughts on the topic:

http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=2058fa

Anyway, what I want to focus on in this post is “the belief that Jesus Christ was born as the result of sexual intercourse between Elohim and Mary.”

Critics of the Church of course love this scandalous nugget (some conflating it with the Adam-God Doctrine to have Adam having sexual intercourse with Mary). It is a commonplace in anti-Mormon literature and websites. And since on its face it appears blasphemous, we have a tendency to recoil from it, to be (overly?) defensive about it, and increasingly to reject it. My usual tack when asked about it is to point out that the idea is not now and never was doctrine; it was a speculation. It is not binding on anyone, and in fact my impression is that it has become very much a minority view in the Church, and that most Mormons do not accept this characterization of the physical generation of the mortal Jesus.

I will confess, however, that I actually like this idea. Maybe it is because I have a streak of old fashioned Mormonism somewhere inside me. But I find it appealing on several levels. First, there is a certain naturalism to the idea. I presume the mortal Jesus had 46 chromosomes, and that 23 came from Mary, but where did the other 23 come from? As a Mormon, I’m not big on the idea that they were created ex nihilo for this specific purpose. I like being able to say that Jesus really did have a father, not in a metaphorical sense only (the language of begetting in the creeds doesn’t mean litera begetting), but in a physical sense. He really was the Son of God.

I also find it fascinating that people see this idea as being so totally offensive. To me, that speaks not only to our radically different conception of God and man as being of the same species, our literalist notion of divine paternalism and our radical materialism, but also to our Puritan heritage. If it is so disgusting to suggest God sired a son by sexual intercourse, why, I wonder, did God ordain that to be the natural method by which we conceive our own children? Is that just some sort of a cosmic joke? Does God sit in yonder heavens and look down on his creatures and laugh at their disgusting and dirty and ridiculous actions? Isn’t it possible that, if God ordained sexual intercourse as the means by which we create children, that it is divinely appointed and not disgusting or dirty at all?

I freely concede that the old fashioned Mormon speculators didn’t think all the way through this idea, and there are theological loose ends, to be sure. But I am curious: does anyone else here kind of like this old notion, or is it Mormon materialism run amuck?

I think it is difficult to find a clear statement from the church today on this issue, because today they do not want to be perceived as saying or hinting that God had sex with Mary. But the LDS theology that I was exposed to definitely taught Jesus was the son of God and Mary in the same way that we are the children of our parents. Now whether or not that means actual intercourse is another question. I think the old prophets definitely believed it did.

[_Jersey Girl]

I think it is difficult to find a clear statement from the church today on this issue, because today they do not want to be perceived as saying or hinting that God had sex with Mary. But the LDS theology that I was exposed to definitely taught Jesus was the son of God and Mary in the same way that we are the children of our parents. Now whether or not that means actual intercourse is another question. I think the old prophets definitely believed it did.

I can only go at this from the "other side", beastie. One of the major differences between MC's and LDS is in how they view God. While LDS might (I say might because I see differing views of doctrine from LDS--just as from other Christians do) believe that God is essentially an exalted man, MC's believe that God is self existent (I AM). To MC's, the very idea that God could have literal sex with Mary is thought to be blasphemy for it appears (I say appears because I don't want to wrap all LDS in the same doctrinal blanket on this) to reduce God to the level of a human. MC's believe that only Christ reduced himself to human level by intention and by design.

Editing: MC's believe that Jesus is God and also self existent.

[_Daniel Peterson]

Or, just perhaps, there's a[n impossibly?] substantive discussion taking place right under your nose here.

You, Dr. Peterson, might just be able to help bring such a thing to fruition.

Sorry, but no. I have absolutely zero confidence in this board as a place for the sustained, serious, nuanced discussion of important ideas.

There's too much of a desire to score points and garner a "gotcha," too much of an adversarial approach to things.

Some posters are worse than others in this regard, it's true -- a few, in my experience, have never given any sign that they're capable of reasoned discussion at all -- but the place as a whole seems a deeply unpromising environment.

We'll be having the annual meeting of the Society for Mormon Philosophy and Theology sometime next spring, very possibly in California. Feel free to attend and participate. Heck, propose a paper when the call for papers is issued.

[_Inconceivable]

..I have absolutely zero confidence in this board as a place for the sustained, serious, nuanced discussion of important ideas.

There's too much of a desire to score points and garner a "gotcha," too much of an adversarial approach to things.

What are you doing here?


Really, what is your motive? Evidently you have stated why you are not here, yes?

[_Jersey Girl]

..I have absolutely zero confidence in this board as a place for the sustained, serious, nuanced discussion of important ideas.

There's too much of a desire to score points and garner a "gotcha," too much of an adversarial approach to things.

What are you doing here?


Really, what is your motive? Evidently you have stated why you are not here, yes?

Um. He's hanging out like everyone else.

Just a guess...

[_truth dancer]

Jesus is the only person on earth to be born of a mortal mother and an immortal father. That is why he is called the Only Begotten Son. From his mother he inherited mortality and was subject to hunger, thirst, fatigue, pain, and death. He inherited divine powers from his Father. No one could take the Savior's life from him unless He willed it. He had power to lay it down and power to take up his body again after dying. (See John 10:17-18.)

OK, so the LDS church DOES, as I was taught, still teach the doctrine that Jesus was half God, half human.

If the LDS church can put this on their website then I don't see how it is disrespectful to discuss. I particularly didn't mention the teaching that God had sex with Mary so as not to go down that rabbit hole, nevertheless it is clear the LDS church believes God is an exalted man with human DNA, and the literal father of Jesus Christ.

~dancer~

[_beastie]

What are you doing here?


Really, what is your motive? Evidently you have stated why you are not here, yes?

He's garnering points and playing gotcha.

[_beastie]

OK, so the LDS church DOES, as I was taught, still teach the doctrine that Jesus was half God, half human.

If the LDS church can put this on their website then I don't see how it is disrespectful to discuss. I particularly didn't mention the teaching that God had sex with Mary so as not to go down that rabbit hole, nevertheless it is clear the LDS church believes God is an exalted man with human DNA, and the literal father of Jesus Christ.

The only quibbling I've seen among some believers is to begin to consider the idea that perhaps God doesn't have his own God/Father, and is the FIRST God. I think they are doing that to try and reconcile LDS beliefs with some scriptures. Or perhaps they do so to try and distance themselves from polytheism.

But I do not believe that even they try to deny that God is an exalted man with human DNA. That is a very basic idea in Mormonism.

I understand how mainstream Christianity struggles with this aspect, and is why, as Jersey Girl mentioned, some think Mormonism worhips a 'different Jesus'. I remember when I had lost faith in the LDS church but hadn't decided whether to completely remove myself from it or remain a silent nonbeliever who still attended. I had a couple of close never LDS friends I discussed it with, and briefly described the major theological differences I had with Mormonism. (at that time I was still a theist). I mentioned this idea - that God is an exalted man and human beings can become gods too, one day. Their jaws hit the floor. I just mentioned it in an offhand way, but to them, it was a major - and bizarre - issue.

So it does seem accurate to say that, under the LDS paradigm, Jesus is half-god, while it is not fully accurate from the mainstream Christian's point of view. However, it still does not seem to me that this phrase betrays such a deep ignorance that one is not even capable of discussing the issue.