The Sons of Helaman - is this a sick joke?

[_cinepro]

As a graduate of this program I can say it works.

[_The Dude]

I think the unhealthy attitude for masturbation is someone who considers suicide over it.

And I think it gets to be unhealthy well before that. I think something similar to binge-and-purge masturbation would also be unhealthy. Obsession is unhealthy. For some people, it's better to just accept who you are until you grow out of it. Then, looking back, it ALL seems quite silly... the standards... trying to meet those standards... what a waste of youth!

On the other hand (no pun intended), there are people who go the other way and don't have high enough standards for their health and appearance.

Of course it can go too far the other way. There are real therapists for those people.

I think ultimately the only thing we really disagree on is whether masturbation is harmless. Since I believe in the existence of sin, I contend that it is not harmless.

If you stopped believing in sin, what harm would there be?

Yet even putting sin aside, I think that abstaining from masturbation is not at all as dangerous for you as becoming an obsessive dieter or hand-washer.

I think we are talking about people who are obsessive about abstaining form masturbation. That is as bad as being an obsessive dieter or hand-washer.

Indeed, even without the sin aspect I personally find satisfaction in being able to exercise self-mastery in something that can be difficult and at the same time does not harm me when exercising said self-mastery (unlike eating disorders).

Then I guess we aren't talking about you Abman. :)

[_asbestosman]

If you stopped believing in sin, what harm would there be?

None that I'm aware of (other than societal taboos, but those don't mean much if you personally don't care). Other primates do it, and unlike some animal behaviors there is no obvious harm to self or others from it.

I think we are talking about people who are obsessive about abstaining form masturbation. That is as bad as being an obsessive dieter or hand-washer.

Besides the guy who contemplates suicide or becomes emotionally distraught from failure, what on earth constitutes being obsessive about abstaining? If it is indeed a sin, I would think that totally abstinance should be the goal, and I'm quite sure that it doesn't necessarily result in emotional distress nor does it continually press upon one's thoughts.

[_silentkid]

...what on earth constitutes being obsessive about abstaining? If it is indeed a sin, I would think that totally abstinance should be the goal, and I'm quite sure that it doesn't necessarily result in emotional distress nor does it continually press upon one's thoughts.

I think this is the point, abman. These kids don't seek help for compulsive masturbation, they seek help because they feel guilty about masturbation, whether it's compulsive or not. The church teaches that breaking the law of chastity is the sin next to murder. Since masturbating is breaking the law of chastity, you can see why these kids feel the guilt they do. If they can't achieve total abstinence they've failed. And that's ridiculous. This Sons Of Helaman farce teaches them that their desires come from Satan and that by fearing Satan and his tactics, they can overcome. Don't you see anything wrong with this...not masturbation itself, but the way these people are going about trying to treat it? It's sickening. They're practicing quack psychology.

Edited to add: The emotional distress these kids feel by not being able to abstain from masturbation is evident in their testimonials. It's also evident before and during and after every mission president interview at zone conferences across the world.

[_asbestosman]

It's also evident before and during and after every mission president interview at zone conferences across the world.

Hmm, interesting point. Seems quite true on my mission--we got a few lectures on it and apparently even sisters weren't immune (hey, I was shocked back then). Once I got back home I started to wonder if I should worry about shaking hands with missionaries. Oh well, fortunately it didn't make me a compulsive hand-washer (except after shaking hands with missionaries).

[_Gadianton]

I think we are talking about people who are obsessive about abstaining

Yes, it's very sad, dude. And I think there is a deeper psychosis involved. These kids aren't only obsessive, but they are already "odd man out" and this program will only dig them deeper into isolation. Well, what I mean is this, there's always that one guy -- at school, church, work, he could be anywhere -- that you know, that just doesn't "get it". He thinks everyone else is really living all these bizarre rules to the fullest extent when everyone else is really half-assing it and knows how to cover their tracks well enough and grade themselves on the curve when answering questions.

[_Dr. Shades]

As a graduate of this program I can say it works.

When you received your diploma, did everyone give you a hand?

[_The Nehor]

...what on earth constitutes being obsessive about abstaining? If it is indeed a sin, I would think that totally abstinance should be the goal, and I'm quite sure that it doesn't necessarily result in emotional distress nor does it continually press upon one's thoughts.

I think this is the point, abman. These kids don't seek help for compulsive masturbation, they seek help because they feel guilty about masturbation, whether it's compulsive or not. The church teaches that breaking the law of chastity is the sin next to murder. Since masturbating is breaking the law of chastity, you can see why these kids feel the guilt they do. If they can't achieve total abstinence they've failed. And that's ridiculous. This Sons Of Helaman farce teaches them that their desires come from Satan and that by fearing Satan and his tactics, they can overcome. Don't you see anything wrong with this...not masturbation itself, but the way these people are going about trying to treat it? It's sickening. They're practicing quack psychology.

Edited to add: The emotional distress these kids feel by not being able to abstain from masturbation is evident in their testimonials. It's also evident before and during and after every mission president interview at zone conferences across the world.

It's a violation of the Law of Chastity now? Wow! When did that happen?

[_The Nehor]

As a graduate of this program I can say it works.

When you received your diploma, did everyone give you a hand?

No idea, I had them mail it to me. I didn't quite have the moral courage to invite friends and family to attend the ceremony.

[_Pokatator]

It's a violation of the Law of Chastity now? Wow! When did that happen?

Classic case of denial.