A question never asked about the "First Vision"

[_moksha]

Except for Noah's Ark.

The Ark is an entirely different matter, since it set sail from Missouri.

[_truth dancer]

Hey cinepro,

How could we know?

~td~

Here's how we "know":

- Joseph Smith later said it was Jesus and God.
- If we pray to God about the subject, He confirms it really happened through the power of the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost can't lie, and God wouldn't do this if it weren't so.
- Joseph later brought forth the Book of Mormon, which testifies of Christ and brings people to him.
- Subsequent prophets have attested to the identity of the personages. The odds of all the latter-day Prophets being wrong about something (and not knowing it) are very small. Except for Noah's Ark.

Yeah, but....

I'm saying what if there are really more beings than the ones Joseph Smith claimed to see? Just because these beings said they were the only ones, or that they are the head honchos, or that they will tell them by the power of the HG that what they say is true, doesn't mean they were telling the truth. (If they have the power to appear to humans they probably have the power to do all sorts of things).

Maybe they were trying to get a bunch of followers to prove their power? Maybe they are trying to control a bunch of people so as to not find the real God? Maybe these guys are lying for some reason of which we are not aware?

The same question would be asked for all those who claim God spoke to them and told them of some particular truth. They could all be just trying to get followers, or exert control, or compete with one another, or manipulate humans in some way... who knows?

Have you read the Abraham material? Conversations with God? The Course in Miracles? What about Warren Jeffs? Jane Roberts? Or any of the hundreds, thousands, or millions of people who believe God talks to them? Maybe they all have divine beings trying to influence humans?

In other words, just because a divine being says something, does it mean it is true?

[_asbestosman]

As Jason Bourne alludes to, the validity of the "tests" are dependant on believing the Joseph Smith was a prophet in the first place, so in that sense it seems to be somewhat of a circular objection to bring up.

Actually it (allegedly) shows internal inconsistency which is sufficient to disprove the soundness of a system.

[_Enuma Elish]

In other words, just because a divine being says something, does it mean it is true?

In the case of Joseph Smith, we don't simply have a claim that Joseph saw God who told him that his sins were forgiven and that Joseph should not join any of the existing Churches. We have a book that has had an enormous spiritual impact on millions of its readers, including yours truly.

[_truth dancer]

Hi EE,

In other words, just because a divine being says something, does it mean it is true?

In the case of Joseph Smith, we don't simply have a claim that Joseph saw God who told him that his sins were forgiven and that Joseph should not join any of the existing Churches. We have a book that has had an enormous spiritual impact on millions of its readers, including yours truly.

I'm not following how this would answer my questions.

There are all sorts of books that help people, all sorts of religions that help people, all sorts of people who claim they have received messages from the divine realm. I listed several that are modern and current but as you know history is filled with books that have impacted the lives of billions of people. Doesn't mean the books are true, nor does it mean the divine being/beings are telling the truth about themselves, their heavenly realm, or their purposes.

How do we really know there is only one God, or that the God who Joseph Smith claims to have seen is the only God, or the best God, or the most powerful God?

How would we know if this God is telling the truth? How do we know there are not many Gods visiting people all the time, teaching various ideas that they want humans to embrace? How do we know a divine being couldn't lie? How could we tell if a divine visitor didn't have some ulterior motive? Maybe various divine beings are God's in training and trying to earn their way to a higher level of Godhood? Or competing amongst themselves for human followers?

In short, how can we trust otherworldly beings?

~td~

[_cinepro]

In other words, just because a divine being says something, does it mean it is true?

In the case of Joseph Smith, we don't simply have a claim that Joseph saw God who told him that his sins were forgiven and that Joseph should not join any of the existing Churches. We have a book that has had an enormous spiritual impact on millions of its readers, including yours truly.

So, the people who heard Joseph's story before the Book of Mormon came forth (or before the Book of Mormon had a chance to impact "millions of readers") were justified in doubting?

[_Enuma Elish]

Hello Cinepro,

So, the people who heard Joseph's story before the Book of Mormon came forth (or before the Book of Mormon had a chance to impact "millions of readers") were justified in doubting?

I believe that anyone is justified in doubting the Joseph Smith story. It's a remarkable, fantastic claim from start to finish.

Even Joseph himself proclaimed as much, "I don't blame any one for not believing my history. If I had not experienced what I have, I could not have believed it myself." (April 7, 1844.) Times and Seasons, Aug. 15, 1844.

However, more specifically to your question, indeed, had Joseph not produced the Book of Mormon, he would have been simply one more 19th century religious zealot who claimed to have seen God.

[_Enuma Elish]

Hello TD,

In short, how can we trust otherworldly beings]

Faith.

[_Jason Bourne]

I was once browsing UFO websites (because I love that kind of stuff) and cam across a reference to a UFO experience related to the Mormon church. Anyway, I followed the link and basically someone had taken first vision experience and explained how it was like many modern abduction or UFO sitings. It got me thinking, well, I guess it is possible that super advanced humans from another universe visited Joseph Smith and this is what he saw. How would he know the difference between divinity and super advanced aliens? Oh, wait, God IS a super advanced alien from another planet. Now I get it.

I think it was Romulans.......or Cylons.

[_truth dancer]

Hey EE,

Hello TD,

In short, how can we trust otherworldly beings]

Faith.

No, its not faith... it is, "faith-in-my-particular-worldview/leader/God/teachings". (my = anyone who teaches faith).



If it were just "faith" then it would basically mean, believe whatever you want, or whatever feels good, or whatever anyone tells you you should believe. But no, each religious leader who shouts faith wants followers to have faith in them, in their belief, in their book, in their God.

Faith = believe what I tell you you should believe




~td~