Abuse from those who should be helping

[Guest]

Well, it's not that I'm un-sympathetic to people who make choices that result in them taking their own lives, but I also think people are wholly responsible for becoming drug addicts or alcoholics or whatever... Unless they're mentally handicapped.

I suppose I'm not sure why responsibility for HER life is being displaced onto a this guy. She chose to get involved with him, she chose to get high, she chose to f*** him, and she chose to commit suicide. As an existentialist I'm completely at ease with the idea that she defined her actions, her morality, and ultimately chose to end her existence. Tragic? I'm not sure. Maybe... But what if SHE was at peace with her decision? Life isn't exactly easy. Maybe her killing herself was a good thing? Maybe it was the thing that gave her peace? To demonize the process is to make commentary on existence more about YOU than her.

[_John Larsen]

I think that Stake Presidents are the weakest link in the whole Church program, because there is absolutely no check and balance on them. There is no way for members to appeal their decision or hold them accountable in any real way. The bishops are almost as bad, but you do have the stake president that you can turn to.

The church's culpability comes from setting up a system where men have such unchecked power over women. Both men and women are forced to meet with the leaders in a way that shifts the entire balance of power to the authority--and they are required to divulge information that can be used against them. The confessor has no retreat and no back up. Women are forced to meet with these men alone and however often they choose. These authorities are free to make up assignments as condition for repentance or to avoid humiliating status in the church.

The problem is that any clever stake president will quickly learn how to read people and figure out who is vulnerable and how to push their buttons. They can demand all sorts of details that gives them a window into how the minds of vulnerable people work. The simple fact is any stake president, with the size of their stake, can find women to have sex with without any problem. I am sure this happens much more often than anyone is willing to admit.

This whole system is ripe with abuse and the Church needs to role out some serious reforms including no longer talking about sex with women behind closed doors or demanding details of past sexual history. The Church also needs to give members a recourse for reporting abusive Church leaders.

[_Dr. Shades]

And it does sound like this woman was at least partially manipulated. This Stake President/doctor knew that she was vulnerable, and used her to get what he wanted.

In other words, the stake president was merely following the example of the man who founded the church you attend every week.

[_antishock8]

And it does sound like this woman was at least partially manipulated. This Stake President/doctor knew that she was vulnerable, and used her to get what he wanted.

In other words, the stake president was merely following the example of the man who founded the church you attend every week.

lulz

[_Some Schmo]

Well, it's not that I'm un-sympathetic to people who make choices that result in them taking their own lives, but I also think people are wholly responsible for becoming drug addicts or alcoholics or whatever... Unless they're mentally handicapped.

If only it were so cut and dry.

While I agree people are responsible for doing something about their addiction, there's more to the cause of addiction than simple choice.

I suppose I'm not sure why responsibility for HER life is being displaced onto a this guy.

Has anyone said that her life was his responsibility? I don't think anyone's condemning him for her taking her life, but he played a part in the whole mess, and he's completely responsible for the part he played.

She chose to get involved with him, she chose to get high, she chose to f*** him, and she chose to commit suicide. As an existentialist I'm completely at ease with the idea that she defined her actions, her morality, and ultimately chose to end her existence.

Right, and he chose to get involved with her, he chose to enable her, he chose to not help her try to get help and he chose to take advantage of the situation. He's responsible for all of that. What a dick.

Tragic? I'm not sure. Maybe... But what if SHE was at peace with her decision? Life isn't exactly easy. Maybe her killing herself was a good thing? Maybe it was the thing that gave her peace? To demonize the process is to make commentary on existence more about YOU than her.

Yes, it does provide commentary on me that I would like to demonize the process of taking the easy way out. So be it.

[_antishock8]

Well, it's not that I'm un-sympathetic to people who make choices that result in them taking their own lives, but I also think people are wholly responsible for becoming drug addicts or alcoholics or whatever... Unless they're mentally handicapped.

If only it were so cut and dry.

While I agree people are responsible for doing something about their addiction, there's more to the cause of addiction than simple choice.

I'm sure there are genetic predispositions to addictive behavior. No doubt. However, there is a reason why 12-step programs exist. They address behavioral problems. Getting clean and sober is a choice and a behavior. Giving someone an out by insinuating that their behavior is too strong, that it's a disease and it's too much for them to overcome without, say, drugs seems counterintuitive.

She chose to get involved with him, she chose to get high, she chose to f*** him, and she chose to commit suicide. As an existentialist I'm completely at ease with the idea that she defined her actions, her morality, and ultimately chose to end her existence.

Right, and he chose to get involved with her, he chose to enable her, he chose to not help her try to get help and he chose to take advantage of the situation. He's responsible for all of that. What a dick.

I agree he's responsible for his behavior. Perhaps she lured him with the promise of sex in order to score some drugs? Who was manipulating who? We don't know. A lot of women are very adept at manipulation, and then avoiding responsibility for their behavior. Displacement isn't an uncommon thing within female circles when it comes to emotion and authority figures. He could have simply been on the receiving end of a lot of her crap because he was safer, an authority figure.

Tragic? I'm not sure. Maybe... But what if SHE was at peace with her decision? Life isn't exactly easy. Maybe her killing herself was a good thing? Maybe it was the thing that gave her peace? To demonize the process is to make commentary on existence more about YOU than her.

Yes, it does provide commentary on me that I would like to demonize the process of taking the easy way out. So be it.

Easy way in... Easy way out. Either way, your opionion, in a very real sense doesn't matter to anyone except you. You creating an emotional state over how someone chooses to terminate their existence simply says you're not too fired up about your existence ending. Not a bad thing, in my opinion... But projecting your insecurity onto her as scorn seems a little misplaced.

[_moksha]

And no, the church isn't directly responsible for her death, but I don't like the culture of patriarchal power and blind worship afforded men in high ranking church positions because of this exact potential. If people were just a little more vigilant and wary, this sort of thing would less likely happen.

Seems to me that his position in this sorry affair was not one of a spiritual advisor, but rather as a drug pusher. The ramifications of this should extend beyond heavenly punishment. Church, criminal and professional wrongdoing should also be considered.

[_Some Schmo]

While I agree people are responsible for doing something about their addiction, there's more to the cause of addiction than simple choice.

I'm sure there are genetic predispositions to addictive behavior. No doubt. However, there is a reason why 12-step programs exist. They address behavioral problems. Getting clean and sober is a choice and a behavior. Giving someone an out by insinuating that their behavior is too strong, that it's a disease and it's too much for them to overcome without, say, drugs seems counterintuitive.

I wasn't giving her an out. I said specifically that people are responsible for what they do about their addiction. It's what leads to addiction that's not clear cut, but that's not giving them an out. Some people have big challenges.

I agree he's responsible for his behavior. Perhaps she lured him with the promise of sex in order to score some drugs? Who was manipulating who? We don't know. A lot of women are very adept at manipulation, and then avoiding responsibility for their behavior. Displacement isn't an uncommon thing within female circles when it comes to emotion and authority figures. He could have simply been on the receiving end of a lot of her s*** because he was safer, an authority figure.

So what? Does any of that absolve his own responsibility in this situation? Why are you quick to think of ways to give him a pass and not her?

Easy way in... Easy way out. Either way, your opionion, in a very real sense doesn't matter to anyone except you.

Of course. Same with yours. Not sure how that's relevant.

You creating an emotional state over how someone chooses to terminate their existence simply says you're not too fired up about your existence ending. Not a bad thing, in my opinion... But projecting your insecurity onto her as scorn seems a little misplaced.

That doesn't even make any sense.

1) What makes you think I've "created an emotional state over how she chose to terminate her existence?" I don't know how she did it. Does it matter? And do people "create an emotional state" or do they let the emotions of their reactions proceed? It's not like I say to myself, "I'm going to get angry or sad now."

2) You think I'm insecure about my own death? It must be nice to be clairvoyant.

What's ironic and contradictory about your attitude here is that, on the one hand, you're completely critical of her drug addiction and her supposed unwillingness to take responsibility for it, but you want to simultaneously give her a pass for handling it via suicide.

I think you're a tad confused. Either that or you're just looking for a reaction from people. Maybe it's a combination of both.