Missing Papyrus

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_William Schryver
_Emeritus
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Re: Missing Papyrus

Post by _William Schryver »

JSM:
The difference between "redaction" and "mistranslation" is mostly one of characterization …

I disagree. The distinctions are several and significant.

Are there any other "clarifications" (i.e., admittedly non-ancient writings) in the Mormon canon?

Are you serious?

If so, the answer is: YES.
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By the way, did I mention how sad it is to see how shockingly irrelevant Kevin Graham has become; what a tragic caricature he has evolved into?

Wow!
... every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol ...
_harmony
_Emeritus
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Re: Missing Papyrus

Post by _harmony »

William Schryver wrote:JSM:
The difference between "redaction" and "mistranslation" is mostly one of characterization …

I disagree. The distinctions are several and significant.

Are there any other "clarifications" (i.e., admittedly non-ancient writings) in the Mormon canon?

Are you serious?

If so, the answer is: YES.
.
.
.
By the way, did I mention how sad it is to see how shockingly irrelevant Kevin Graham has become; what a tragic caricature he has evolved into?

Wow!


If you could just once stay on topic, it would be such a refreshing change.


x
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
_Kevin Graham
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Re: Missing Papyrus

Post by _Kevin Graham »

Expect Will to use the JST as evidence. Of course the JST is nothing but a massive attempt to "clarify" an already translated Bible. By contrast, the Book of Abraham claims to be a literal translation of Egyptian documents. But don't expect Will to understand the difference.

By the way, did I mention how sad it is to see how shockingly irrelevant Kevin Graham has become; what a tragic caricature he has evolved into?


You've stated this many times over the course of three years, but it makes little sense. I guess you think you're somehow getting me back for showing the world what a liar and a fraud you really are.

Either way, you've never explained what you mean by it. The put down suggests that I was, once upon a time, "relevant" to the so called "discussion," and that ever since I was banned from MADB, somehow I've become irrelevant. As if MADB had the authority to decide who is and who isn't relevant, via exclusion. As if the controvery never gets debated outside that forum.

I've responded to your idiotic arguments in other forums ever since November of 2006, and you know it. The reason you choose to hide out over there is because you know I am forbidden to respond. Brent and Chris have to mind their manners or else we know they'd be banned too. This is why you are trying to get Chris to call Gee a liar again, so he will be banned and you can avoid looking like an idiot since there will be no one left to refute you in that echo chamber you call a pundits forum. And you know you have yet to respond to numerous detailed refutations I provided on my forum. But fear not, you will get your chance when I consolidate and present them in a venue that will demand a response.

But seriously, do you really think you've become "relevant" in any meaningful way? After three years you've provided nothing new or innovative. Three years ago you were saying the same crap: that the so-called experts have "confirmed" your theories about Abr 1:12 and the "Haran dittograph." After three years you want to pretend you're advancing an old discussion that was dead in the water when Brian Hauglid chickened out and Brent decided you weren't worth debating? Your various threads at MADB only prove you're a glutton for punishment, and your latest piece in pundits is an utter joke. It was immediately shot down by Chris, who clearly knows far more on this subject than you ever will. He provided a detailed refutation in a deft manner, clearly off the cuff, on a topic it took you more than a year to research (and you still don't understand it!), with help from a half dozen people. You've turned into one of those amateur "know nothngs" who thinks a high quantity of footnotes will somehow make a crap article appear scholarly.

So to be frank, if what you're doing proves relevance, then I'm happy to be irrelevant. It means I'm not embarrassing my colleagues or making an ass of myself.
_William Schryver
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Re: Missing Papyrus

Post by _William Schryver »

Cracker Graham:
But seriously, do you really think you've become "relevant" in any meaningful way?

Certainly not. I'm just a minor player in the game. But I've scored this time down the floor.

I have gotten Chris Smith to consent to a minimum missing scroll length of at least 8 feet. That IS relevant. Essentially, that means that this particular game is already won.

Not only that, but I'm confident he'll eventually have to acknowledge the facts and increase his estimate accordingly. (Either that, or sacrifice every last bit of his credibility.) The papyrus used for the scroll of Horos is thinner than 290 microns. And Chris will have to disprove Hoffmann's theory to argue otherwise.

I don't think he can do it.
... every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol ...
_Kevin Graham
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Re: Missing Papyrus

Post by _Kevin Graham »

Certainly not. I'm just a minor player in the game. But I've scored this time down the floor.


Only if you consider a missed layup while popping yourself in the nose with the ball, "scoring." You create these lttle "games" for your own ego, but you always look like a know-nothing in the end. I mean seriously, if you relied on input from several other apologists, including a few critics, for you to develop that sllly piece in pundits, then what exactly did you do except serve as their patsy?

I have gotten Chris Smith to consent to a minimum missing scroll length of at least 8 feet. That IS relevant. Essentially, that means that this particular game is already won.


Oh really? So you mean all this time you were only trying to convince someone you recently referred to as a "21-year-old California Kid, barely out of puberty," that the papyrus could have been as long as 8 feet? Where did you mention that as your intention?

Chris is a very bright kid, but convincing him of a minor point is hardly evidence of a "game won."

Not only that, but I'm confident he'll eventually have to acknowledge the facts and increase his estimate accordingly. (Either that, or sacrifice every last bit of his credibility.) The papyrus used for the scroll of Horos is thinner than 290 microns. And Chris will have to disprove Hoffmann's theory to argue otherwise.


You're pretending that you have presented a meaningful, coherent argument for the missing papyrus theory. The fact is your argument has an apologetic value of zero, since the critics have never denied there is missing papyri. All you are doing now is kissing up to Gee, trying to salvage one of his most embarrassing arguments. And it remains to be based on assumptions, not demonstrable facts.

What you have to do is show that there was at least 8 feet available to Joseph Smith, and that he relied on what is missing. At some point in time you'll have to deal with the unpleasant fact that all the evidence points to the extant papyrus being the translation source for the Book of Abraham. So it doesn't really matter how long the scroll was originally. The fact is the evidences point to what we now have as the material used by Smith and his scribes.
_CaliforniaKid
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Re: Missing Papyrus

Post by _CaliforniaKid »

William Schryver wrote:I have gotten Chris Smith to consent to a minimum missing scroll length of at least 8 feet.

Say WHAT??
_Kevin Graham
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Re: Missing Papyrus

Post by _Kevin Graham »

LOL!

So much for "game won."
_Who Knows
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Re: Missing Papyrus

Post by _Who Knows »

Who Knows wrote:Sorry if i've missed this (since i don't care to read the minutiae) but what were these scrolls wrapped around? I'm assuming there's some sort of core rod or something. Were these always a standard diameter? How does anyone know what this was wrapped around?


Anyone? I'm guessing this is a fairly simple question?
WK: "Joseph Smith asserted that the Book of Mormon peoples were the original inhabitants of the americas"
Will Schryver: "No, he didn’t." 3/19/08
Still waiting for Will to back this up...
_William Schryver
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Re: Missing Papyrus

Post by _William Schryver »

CaliforniaKid wrote:
William Schryver wrote:I have gotten Chris Smith to consent to a minimum missing scroll length of at least 8 feet.

Say WHAT??

That's right Chris.

If you consent to a 290 micron thickness, you consent to 8 feet of scroll. Unless you're going to argue that they had it wrapped around a telephone pole.

Besides, it doesn't matter. The scroll of Horos simply ain't 290 microns thick. Gee's measurements are most certainly "in the ballpark" of correct, meaning that we're dealing with a thin stock of papyrus. Plus, I've seen pictures of the thick Greco-Roman era stuff. You can tell it's thick just looking at the pictures. The Horos fragments look very, very thin and fine. .5 mm (500 microns) is damn near cardboard, silly! They make boxes out of material that thick. That is simply not what we're dealing with here. Even the photos bear that out.

But, hey, you've got yourself "fully invested" now -- and a mutual admiration society right here that will pat you on the back no matter what stance you take on this issue. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if you can keep up this "John Gee is an imbecile for asserting a long scroll" tack for several more years. There's a niche market for that kind of stuff, just so long as you're willing to compromise your credibility in the world outside of Mormon studies.

It's a strange vendetta you're pursuing, but I guess you have your reasons.

He piled upon the whale's white hump the sum of all his rage and hate ...
... every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol ...
_dblagent007
_Emeritus
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Re: Missing Papyrus

Post by _dblagent007 »

This controversy will not end until a few other people are allowed to inspect and measure the actual scroll. Critics are fumbling around with pictures while apologists defend measurements that seem highly implausible (50 micron thick papyrus = the thickness of the paper used to make my quad).

I suspect the truth is somewhere in the middle (I have no evidence to back this up).

Incidentally, where is the thread between Chap, Will, and Chris that discusses this.
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