What is a "spiritual witness?"

[_BishopRic]

Fair enough...and really the only answer that makes sense to me. But to me, it begs the conclusion that it may be exactly the same, and "we" are misinterpreting that it means "we" have the one and only truth.

No?

As I edited into above post how come this only applies to spiritual things? I'm a libertarian and yet others are liberals or conservatives. Do I assume that my knowledge of the rightness of what I think is false simply because others have come to other conclusions?

I think your comparison has merit...but since we're dealing with a form of communication from another sphere of existence (allegedly), and the perceived message is that our religion is the one and only truth for all people, and another's message appears to be the same (for his religion), isn't it most likely that we are misinterpreting the message?

In other words, maybe you, uniquely, fit better as a libertarian, and another as a democrat, but as it relates to religious claims, Mormons and others claim God is not only telling them that their way is good for them, but for everybody else too (or that the others just need to be exterminated...).

So again, because of the dramatic and numerous contradictions, Occam's Razor seems to tell me that most, if not all, perceived spiritual witnesses of some sort of "truth" are not that at all. It's that simple mixture of hormones and circumstances that feel good...and we mistakenly project that as some sort of confirmation of historical truth.

A significant example of this for me was the Paul H. Dunn saga. I felt a spiritual witness quite strongly when I heard his talks...then learned later that they (many) were not true. That "tilt" made me re-think the process.

But maybe I'm just being too logical?

[_BishopRic]

I still have questions about the one true Church and what does that mean exactly. But I can't deny that the spiritual realm exists. A spiritual witness is spiritual communication. We truly are eternal spirits that are in a temporary human state. But much of that world is hidden from us for the most part. And yet sometimes it seems we end up connecting with it anyway. From my limited experience, the spirit world is a much happier place than we are in now. So what good did it do me to have reconnected with this world? It gave me a view of a world so much better than the one I'm in that I couldn't help but be happier just by knowing it exists. It's truly an amazing experience. Mine was born out of tragedy. I'm not sure it's something you can force. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. I guess for now we just appreciate it if it happens, and make the best of it if it doesn't. But we'll all die some day. Once you peel away all your human self, your spirit is all that's left, hence we'll all appreciate it some day one way or another.

Some things I can find spiritual witnesses to their truth very easily. Some things I just get a blank and simply don't know.

I can relate to much of what you say here. I think most of us have experiences that we seem inclined to label and interpret. These experiences are very subjective...but certainly real.

But I think we may be mistaken when we attach the experience with a meaning...and I think we do it because others before us (parents, teachers) did it and told us how we should interpret it. The reason I think we may be wrong in our conclusions is that so many different and unrelated cultures have similar experiences and attach meanings that are in stark contrast to ours.

NDEs (near death experiences) are one example. I studied them quite a bit years ago, and what was clear was that those who described them were consistent with what they expected. Mormons see their families in white and/or Jesus. Buddhists don't.

So again, it seems we should go deeper and really ask ourselves what is real...and what is our molded perception of the experience.

[_Mercury]

What is a spiritual witness? Why...its whatever you want it to be.

[Guest]

I thought I did a decent job describing my first hand experience with revelation.

Did anyone else read it or care to comment on it? (by the way SK, you make a good point. NightLion, I can tell you're swallowing way too much mouthwash, lately).

My contention is that revelation is vividly real but is nevertheless falable.

by the way, a spiritual witness = revelation. If it does not, it is neither.

(edited to recognize SK for his contribution and NL for his drunken stuper)

[_Inconceivable]

Anyone who has ever said in a priesthood blessing, "..and any additional blessing God sees fit to bestow upon you.." is a poser. He has no connection (or maybe he is morally unworthy).

s***. I was a poser. I used to say that when I gave priesthood blessings. It's one of those things you pick up from listening to others give blessings, kind of like "bless this food that it may nourish and strengthen our bodies". It's part of the formula. Nothing you say really matters anyways because the priesthood is make-believe magic with no more healing power than new age crystals. Amen.

If you grow up in a family or even a ward where spiritual manifestations are turned into fables, there really is only one way to give a priesthood blessing.

Don't beat yourself up over using poser minded platitudes (and I know you're beyond that). I experienced real stuff though - one of the reasons why my sense of betrayal has been so deeply profound.

[_The Nehor]

I think your comparison has merit...but since we're dealing with a form of communication from another sphere of existence (allegedly), and the perceived message is that our religion is the one and only truth for all people, and another's message appears to be the same (for his religion), isn't it most likely that we are misinterpreting the message?

In other words, maybe you, uniquely, fit better as a libertarian, and another as a democrat, but as it relates to religious claims, Mormons and others claim God is not only telling them that their way is good for them, but for everybody else too (or that the others just need to be exterminated...).

So again, because of the dramatic and numerous contradictions, Occam's Razor seems to tell me that most, if not all, perceived spiritual witnesses of some sort of "truth" are not that at all. It's that simple mixture of hormones and circumstances that feel good...and we mistakenly project that as some sort of confirmation of historical truth.

A significant example of this for me was the Paul H. Dunn saga. I felt a spiritual witness quite strongly when I heard his talks...then learned later that they (many) were not true. That "tilt" made me re-think the process.

But maybe I'm just being too logical?

If I am misinterpreting the message then the message is incredibly flawed. Visions, dreams, revelations, and all the rest all sharing the wrong message or one so easily misinterpreted that I missed it all. If God is that clumsy then I don't fear being wrong. He's the one who messed up.

I think I feel more strongly then that. I am a libertarian and think my version of it is best for everyone and that others are largely mistaken. Admittedly I don't approach this with the same fervor as my religious beliefs like Droopy does.

Occam's Razor tells me that my subconscious mind is not this smart to see the future the way I have, learn the insights I have, or conjure up experiences that so understand objective reality.

[_Paracelsus]

The spiritual witness is somebody who can
1. see things with his/her spiritual eyes (if there is such organ)
2. hear things with his/her spiritual ears (if there is such organ)
3. touch ...
4. smell ...
5. taste ...
6. think with his/her spiritual brain (if there is such procedure)
7. believe everything said by other spiritual witnesses

As there are no spiritual sense organs and thinking, use 7.

[_The Nehor]

The spiritual witness is somebody who can
1. see things with his/her spiritual eyes (if there is such organ)
2. hear things with his/her spiritual ears (if there is such organ)
3. touch ...
4. smell ...
5. taste ...
6. think with his/her spiritual brain (if there is such procedure)
7. believe everything said by other spiritual witnesses

As there are no spiritual sense organs and thinking, use 7.

Followed logically this is a paradox. You go to number 7 and then start the list over again for the other person with the spiritual witness and it goes on forever. STOP USING THIS VOODOO WITCHCRAFT!!!!!!

[_Nightlion]

The spiritual witness is somebody who can
1. see things with his/her spiritual eyes (if there is such organ)
2. hear things with his/her spiritual ears (if there is such organ)
3. touch ...
4. smell ...
5. taste ...
6. think with his/her spiritual brain (if there is such procedure)
7. believe everything said by other spiritual witnesses

As there are no spiritual sense organs and thinking, use 7.

LOL You see, don't you, how ego retentive you are? Spirit witness or gifts have nothing to do with who you are and what you can do.
It comes from God. By his power you see, hear, feel, understand, speak, act, and testify. The power of God carries it own certification by its power of love, pure intelligence which manifests you are being wrought upon by God. In other words God is the means (organ) by which all things are done. Fear Him.

[_Mercury]

The spiritual witness is somebody who can
1. see things with his/her spiritual eyes (if there is such organ)
2. hear things with his/her spiritual ears (if there is such organ)
3. touch ...
4. smell ...
5. taste ...
6. think with his/her spiritual brain (if there is such procedure)
7. believe everything said by other spiritual witnesses

As there are no spiritual sense organs and thinking, use 7.

LOL You see, don't you, how ego retentive you are? Spirit witness or gifts have nothing to do with who you are and what you can do.
It comes from God. By his power you see, hear, feel, understand, speak, act, and testify. The power of God carries it own certification by its power of love, pure intelligence which manifests you are being wrought upon by God. In other words God is the means (organ) by which all things are done. Fear Him.

The God of Logic and Reason dictates that you are wrong and in need of Thorazine. Listen to this revelation and I pray you find peace.