More Spiritual money laundering

[_harmony]

This may help explain what is going on. Looks like IRA is in trouble and needed some cash.

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/2009/01/28/20090128biz-fulton0128.html

I wonder if the bankruptcy court will require the church to refund their tithing.

[_Ray A]

Neither the Fultons nor company bankruptcy attorney Mark Roth returned calls seeking comment. Court documents show that Fulton Homes owes $100 million to $500 million to more than 100 individual creditors, including lead creditor Bank of America.

Maybe Mr. Fulton picked up some bad karma somewhere.


.

[_Yong Xi]

I read through the thread on MAD from November 2008 regarding this transaction. The faithful have all kinds of rationale for overpaying for the property. Some have suggested the Church will use it for a farm. Others believe the Church got a great deal by purchasing at 50% less than the previous owners. Having bought, sold and developed real estate for years, I can tell you that a fundamental rule is to offer very low prices in a collapsing market to a seller in trouble. The Church violated this rule. You don't spend 72 million without understanding the financial position of the seller. You do your due diligence. Full appraisals both from within and outside are done on a transaction of this size. You just don't pay double the value for raw land in this market. You just don't. Not only that, the Church did not need to finance this transaction. They are a strong, quick close, cash buyer. The best kind of buyer. A discount is in order.

I doubt the Church has done anything illegal, however. The Church can pay whatever it wants for its' real estate. They are accountable only to themselves and have their reasons for overpaying. Ira Fulton probably approached them. I doubt there were even other buyers bidding on the property. The Church probably felt some obligation and perhaps, got a little sloppy as well.

[_LDSDoubter]

This may help explain what is going on. Looks like IRA is in trouble and needed some cash.

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/2009/01/28/20090128biz-fulton0128.html

I was under the impression that the kind of help the church gave people was to buy groceries for them if they were hungry and pay their utilities and rent if they have no cash to pay them. Even if this guy is bankrupt, overpaying him for a property so he can have an extra 30 million in his pocket is hardly what I would call charity.

Also, if it can be proven that this man is associated with the church, which it can, there is fraud present as well. It looks to me like, since he is on the finance committee, that he scheduled a deal to overpay himself using church funds. This is proof the church is taking people's money under false pretenses, and the leaders are pocketing the funds through shady deals like this.

Also, this is just a deal we know about. When you factor in all the other church leaders that are probably doing the same thing, it becomes painfully obvious that the whole thing is just a scam. Also, if they're lying to us about this, where does that place what they say about Joseph Smith, Book of Mormon, Book of Abraham, etc. If someone will tell one lie to you, they will have no problem lying to you about everything else.

[_Mercury]

Also, this is just a deal we know about. When you factor in all the other church leaders that are probably doing the same thing, it becomes painfully obvious that the whole thing is just a scam. Also, if they're lying to us about this, where does that place what they say about Joseph Smith, Book of Mormon, Book of Abraham, etc. If someone will tell one lie to you, they will have no problem lying to you about everything else.

This is the bigger issue. We don't know how often this occurs. We can assume that MormonCorp has the opportunity to do this and does nothing about it.

Property Reserve Inc (a.k.a. the LDS Church) is complicit in this deal.

[_Jason Bourne]

I have been out of town, will be busy the next few days catching up and then out of town again for the first part of next week. I looked at this briefly. I will look at it in more depth. But at first glance I hardly think this case demonstrates that the cadre of Mormon GAs and those connected are enriching themselves off the widow's mite.

[_Inconceivable]

But at first glance I hardly think this case demonstrates that the cadre of Mormon GAs and those connected are enriching themselves off the widow's mite.

I'm sure the widow could have put a mite to better use than to drop it in a pot with no bottom.

I can't emphasize enough what a barren out of the way wasteland Maricopa is. It's not even a Mormon community and 15 miles from Tempe and Phoenix. There's no sustainable employment there. It's several miles from the main freeway so no one even passes through.

Many thought Disney was nuts for buying up swamp land in Florida. A Mormon theme park at 115 degrees?

On a side note, the languishing Queencreek (mormonville) is at least sprawling from Gilbert and Mesa (highly dense Mormon populations). It's strange how chapels and stake centers showed up before grocery stores, gas stations and even McDonalds.

When the housing market began taking a dump a year ago, the outlying areas imploded first. Queencreek was one of the highest in foreclosures last year.

I suspect that Fulton was defaulting on a number of big tithe paying Mormon contractors as well. So perhaps there was a trickle down effect to the cash he was inoculated with.

To reward speculators by bailing them out with funds of the widow's mite is unconscionable.

[_capt jack]

This story was discussed late last fall on another board:

http://www.thefoyer.org/viewtopic.php?t=6478

From that thread:

Mike Michaels wrote:
It is very possible that the land the Church is purchasing originally belonged to the Church before they sold it to Fulton with a guarantee repurchase agreement if the value ever declined. Nearly all this land was originally cotton farms and I know the Church owned large tracts - some commercially and some not for profit. I suspect that's the real story behind the transaction. As such, the Church likely didn't lose any money per se because it never received cash payment for the land when it sold to Fulton. Fulton may not even have to take a book loss for the difference between buying and selling prices. The Church has no vested interest in bankrupting a high profile member.

I don't know enough about real estate to know whether this is true or not, but some of you might.

[_Jason Bourne]

I'm sure the widow could have put a mite to better use than to drop it in a pot with no bottom

Of course you are sure. The LDS Church is simply the Mormon Mafia in your mind. Nothing is going to change that.

[_Morrissey]

I'm sure the widow could have put a mite to better use than to drop it in a pot with no bottom

Of course you are sure. The LDS Church is simply the Mormon Mafia in your mind. Nothing is going to change that.

I would want more information before concluding that LDS Inc. acted inappropriately here. I prefer not to automatically assume that it is acting in bad faith.

Neither, however, am I naïve enough to believe (like my FIL) that LDS Inc. is necessarily run by honorable men. I have observed too much of human nature over my years to even consider this a possibility. Mormons, even those in high leadership, are every bit as human as anyone else. I've known too many dishonorable and dishonest bastards in leadership positions in LDS Inc. to give the Church an automatic pass each time. (Including a stake President in California who finagled his way onto the Board of Directors of a friend's firm only shortly thereafter to stage a coup, dispose of my friend, and take over the business, leaving my friend with virtually nothing, in his late 50s.)

So, whereas I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt here, I would not be at all surprised if there was some shady goings on behind the scenes.